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Thread: From Victory to the Hung 洪勝 to Great Victory 鸿勝

  1. #91
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    For me it's simply this:

    Chan Heung - Founder of CLF
    Jeung Yim - Founder of Hung Sing branch
    Tam Sam - Founder of Buk Sing branch.

    The co-founder theory doesn't hold water for me becuase where can you see Jeung Yim's mark on Chan Heung's style. If they "co-founded" the style there would be more crossover and similarity between the branches. What exactly was "co-founded"?

    Both sides have holes in their histories the Choy Fook is Ching Cho thing on the Chan side and the Jeung Yim studied with Lay Yau San on the Hung Sing side.

  2. #92
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    Jeung Yim studied with Lay Yau San on the Hung Sing side.
    CLFNOLE, why is it so hard to believe that Cheung Yim learned from Lay Yau San? Now, if he was a creation of the King Mui lineage then i can see how this could be an issue. however, the idea that lay yau san only taught the lee gar system to Chan Heung and no one else is ridiculous to me. Lay yau san was in the general area teaching kung fu. it's not at all off base. thinking Chan Heung was Lay Yau San's only disciple doesn't set well at all.
    but if that's not what you're meaning, then why think it impossible for Cheung Yim to study lee gar as a kid? i mean there is so much about both chan heung and cheung yim's lives that we are totally clueless to, and since Fut San re-emerged they have information about the founder of my lineage that others wouldn't have. I'm not going to poo poo anything unless its completely ludicrous like chan heung killing a tiger with his bare hands or wait....was it a coat hanger? still....that's straight BS.

    The co-founder theory doesn't hold water for me becuase where can you see Jeung Yim's mark on Chan Heung's style
    where? in his later material. even the government site for Xin Hui lists things what they worked on together. do i believe it? no. but anything's possible.
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 07-30-2014 at 10:44 AM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  3. #93
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    The reason I don't believe is the reason I don't believe Choy Fook was Ching Cho...it's convenient. How convenient that all of a sudden Choy Fook is Ching Cho so this debunks the hung sing side claims. How convenient that as a child Jeung Yim trains with Lay Yau San so now he shares more teachers with Chan Heung yet Lay Yau San's style which was known for its footwork is not pronounced in Jeung Yim's style. Everyone wants to make their side look better for whatever reason there is always and agenda behind things such as moving up a generation. I always maintain if you are comfortable in your own skin and ability who cares what generation you are?

    And just becuase the Chinese Government says something it means nothing...according to their history books Tianamen Square never happened.

  4. #94
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    The reason I don't believe is the reason I don't believe Choy Fook was Ching Cho...it's convenient.
    its not convenient. it's outright THEFT. IDENTITY THEFT.

    How convenient that as a child Jeung Yim trains with Lay Yau San so now he shares more teachers with Chan Heung yet Lay Yau San's style which was known for its footwork is not pronounced in Jeung Yim's style.
    Cheung Yim never completed Lee Gar and he was under 12 years old when he trained under Lee Yau San. anything he learned from Lee Yau San would have been pushed to the back by the choy lee fut cheung hung sing was learning. Still, we don't use the idea of Cheung Hung Sing learning from Lee Yau San against anything for any reason. you haven't heard anyone say "Cheung Yim was Chan Heung's lee gar classmate". furthermore, discounting the new information coming from a once defunct lineage such as fut san hung sing without further research is unfair in my book. Does it matter today if Cheung Yim did or didn't learn from Lee Yau San? not at all. we're not claming to teach Lee Gar. Fut Gar Kuen is the primary system of Cheung Yim with Lee Gar and Choy Lee Fut as back up systems because he never completed the latter styles.

    and just becuase the Chinese Government says something it means nothing...according to their history books Tianamen Square never happened.
    exactly. For example, today people are claiming that Monk Choy Fook studied under guys who existed "600" years before Choy Fook was born. how does that happen?

    Just because people don't believe something, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't true either. But in the case of Choy Fook's training 600 years before he was born, if anyone believes THAT, then I have the golden gate bridge to sell you
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 07-30-2014 at 11:00 AM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  5. #95
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    Why I will never follow the Chan Heung’s lineages account of Fut San Hung Sing Hist

    There is controversy over Chan Heung’s actual birth year.
    Is it 1815, or 1806?

    King Mui lineage claims Cheung Yim was not the first Hung Sing in Fut San. But they never tried to explain that the two Hung Sing names were h0monyms, sure they sounded alike but their make up and meaning were not the same. if Cheung Hung Sing was using "Holy One" as his name then sure, its possible chan din foon opened in fut san, even though there is no mention of him in fut san or its history. but cheung hung sing was using HUNG VICTORY and not "Holy one" or "GREAT SAGE" or whatever.

    The King Mui lineages tried to claim the Green Grass Monk didn’t exist. Then after the online debate over the Green Grass Monk someone came out and claimed they found the true identity of the Green Grass Monk and that it was Chan Heung’s 3rd teacher Monk Choy Fook. They further claim Ching Cho is a Buddhist temple name. However, I know this isn’t true because the GG name isn’t Buddhist at all and its true origins rest in the Secret Society. I’ve even read someone’s comments about if the Green Grass Monk could be applied to Chan Heung, then yes GGM existed. But, if we apply it to Cheung Hung Sing, then no he didn’t exist, he’s just a myth. You don’t see what I see here?

    When asked what is the time frame that Cheung Hung Sing studied under Chan Heung? They say 1867, but we say 1836 The city of Fut San has Cheung Hung Sing’s school registered in 1851. King Mui claims 1867 and gives no explanation as to how Cheung Hung Sing had his school already opened 16 years before their claim. At the same time, King Mui tries to claim Chan Heung was responsible for sending Cheung Hung Sing to Fut San. However it is written by Chan Heung that Cheung Hung Sing “RETURNED” to fut san in 1867 to “RE-OPEN” the school he previously closed down because of the Tai Ping Rebellion.

    They claim that monk Choy Fook (circa 19th century) studied under Jue Yuan Monk 觉远上人, Yi Guan Monk 一贯禅师, Li Sou 李叟, Bai Yu Feng 白玉峰 who all existed in the 13th century. That’s 600years. This is complete horse pucky and should be immediately removed from Choy Fook’s history. Choy Fook really learned from someone who existed 600 years prior his birth? Really?
    Choy Gau Yee is the only person who Choy Fook could have learned from and Choy Gau Yee is connected to Choy Gar. But, more than once, king mui lineages tried to claim that Choy Fook’s teachers were the one’s who lived 600 years earlier so he taught more than just Choy Gar. RIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!

    Chan Heung killed a tiger with his bare hands, and was never injured, right? RIIIIIIIGHT. Then there’s the story of Chan Heung killing the tiger with a coat hanger. A coat hanger? What? I thought it was with his bare hands?!?!? Then the tiger skin was stolen……..so no evidence of that. Hmmmmm ok

    King Mui lineages claim Chan Heung sent Cheung Hung Sing to fut san, but fails to explain how he was able to re-open a school that he never opened if he wasn’t already there before.
    The King Mui lineage tries to feed us stories like Cheung Hung Sing’s father was a hung gar guy and he name Cheung Yim as “Hung Sing” in reference to “Hung Gar Victory” hahahahaha NONSENSE.
    Our elders were fed some bs when Hu Van Cheuk tried to give Lun Chee a copy of Chan Yiu Chi’s historical account and Lun Chee immediately dismissed it.

    Chan Heung took Cheung Yim with him everywhere including places like Singapore and established schools there. But in the entire history of Singapore there’s only been one CLF school there and that is of the Lee Yan lineage in the 1960’s.

    King Mui lineages seem to be confused to where Chan Yuen Wu was teaching.

    King Mui lineages seem to be confused to how Chan Heung came to meet Lee Yau San and the circumstances around that.

    King Mui lineages are not in agreement to their Hung Sing name and whether or not it was connected to Hung Wu, or the southern sea patron saint who went by the name of “Hung Sheng”.
    The King Mui lineages don’t agree to the circumstances of chan heung meeting Choy Fook.


    You don't even know the real birthdate of Chan Koon Pak.

    I could probably keep going but I won’t. I know people will get the idea that I’m not going to trust a lineage with so many holes in their own history. I’m going to keep trusting my lineage on the history according to my lineage.
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 08-03-2014 at 09:02 PM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  6. #96
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    To say both sides don't have holes in their stories is laughable at best, which is why I care little about history. I care that there is a CLF style that I practice and try to promote.

  7. #97
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    History is about pushing agendas nowadays.

  8. #98
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    To say both sides don't have holes in their stories is laughable at best, which is why I care little about history. I care that there is a CLF style that I practice and try to promote.
    I agree about the holes. This is why i research so much so i can righteously fill them in with the truth. For example, my sifu and I debunked the "HUNG SING" theory that Cheung Yim was killed early on in his life (33years old) when he was at a dock waiting to board a ship to see Chan Heung. a fight breaks out and Cheung yim goes to break it up then they turn on him. he defeats them with just an umbrella. THIS is complete BS because Chan Ngua Sing didn't start training with Cheung Yim until 1884. there's no way cheung yim could have died in the 1850's and came back to train Chan Ngau Sing for the next 9 years.

    Still, the great thing that makes us human beings is that you don't have to care about something as trivial as history. But, good thing that's not for everyone. We will always find SOMEONE interested in history and since the history is my passion, I plan to have answers for the future generations instead of NO ANSWERS. or saying "IDK". I can't live with that. maybe you can. maybe others too. but there will be more people in the future that WILL care. I want to make those people's lives easier by doing the foot work for them.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  9. #99
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    History is about pushing agendas nowadays.
    Not for me. I came from a place where we knew very little about our own family. I didn't like that feeling. Today is a different story. I've managed to document much of my direct lineages history as well as going back to Fut San. I am not from, nor have i ever learned king mui lineage material so i have no ill feelings towards Chan Heung. In fact, i know HE didn't mess this thing up. its who came after him that did. it's those who arrogantly throw insults at others for not being their direct lineage. it's those like extrajoseph who intentionally mislead people.

    I will state this on everything i love in this world.......Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut has no agenda to overthrow Chan Heung. In my whole time as a HSCLF student (30+ years) I've never had a conversation with a hung sing disciple that wants to overthrow chan heung, or has some "AGENDA" as you put it. All we want to do is tell our history as we know it. not what the guy across the street has to say. the idea of someone having an "AGENDA" or being suspected of having one needs a little more introspection by the ones making "AGENDA" claims.

    What does Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut gain by disputing the King Mui version of our own history? absolutely NOTHING. NADDA. WALA. ZIPPO. Zilch. Cheung Hung Sing is recognized as one of southern China's greatest fighers. He personally built his own fame or notoriety. and he became to most important person in the history of Choy Lee Fut.

    Fut San Hung Sing lineages acknowledge Chan Heung as one of Cheung Yim's teachers. But, their personal opinion is "what does he have to do with us?". This should be entirely evident by the lack of Chan Heung's image on the walls of any pure Fut San Hung Sing lineage today. so, here we go back to the question, "why claim CLF?" if chan heung didn't have much to do with us? I'm 5th generation Fut San, the generations before mine should be able to answer that. Me, I'm just a participant of THIS generation as we discover more about our lineage. It's also like the universe, we are only recently find new planets out there. Before we discovered this, we had no idea any more were out there. did this mean they didn't exist just cause we didn't know? NOT AT ALL. that's why its called "DISCOVERY".
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  10. #100
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    You may have no agenda but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there are other hung sing people that have an agenda against the Chan Family. It goes both ways but its not one-sided.

  11. #101
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    You may have no agenda but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there are other hung sing people that have an agenda against the Chan Family. It goes both ways but its not one-sided.
    Have you heard of someone's agenda in Hung Sing? Not me. If i knew who had an agenda, i'd be against him in a heart beat. again, being from the fut san lineage, and from a very old lineage, i've never come across ONE comment about an agenda to overthrow Chan Heung. NEVER dude. i'd be suspicious too of certain people's agenda's. But my "agenda" is just to discover the truth about my lineage. period. I can't worry about other people. MY "Agenda" is pure and honest. This is my family. Again, i started out believing the king mui historical account. That's because we didn't know much about our own. My opinion changed after doing the research, not because of something someone was trying to put in my ear.

    i don't deal with people who has an agenda. this is why i research ALONE. i want to come to my own conclusions.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  12. #102
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    Yes that is what I am saying because it would be stupid to use "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing at the time, when Hung Men was an organization that tried to overturn the Qing and reinstate the Ming rule. You can use it NOW but don't try to tell us that Cheung Yim used it in his time.
    I AM telling you that he DID use that name!!!!! 100% i'm TELLING you that. i could care less about what you think when the FACT is this "洪勝" wasn't only used by Cheung Hung Sing. This name is STRICTLY a triad name. While NO ONE ELSE in Choy Lee Fut used this name, Cheung Hung Sing did. And it WASN'T a slogan used by Choy Lee Fut people either as it has been FALSELY CLAIMED.

    EJ, YOU are such a natural born liar that you seem to forget that YOU...YOU dude...YOU tried telling me sme BULLSH1T that the only way Cheung Yim got the Hung Sing "洪勝" was because his father was a hung gar student and "Hung Sing" "洪勝" was a reference to Hung Gar. ROTFLMFFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter how you try to twist this, i know how to untwist it.

    Again, Cheung Yim was the ONLY person in CLF to use the "洪勝" Hung Sing name.

    YOU forget that your own people have said that when Cheung Yim returned to Fut San in 1867 to re-open his "洪勝" school, he needed to rename it. Therefore, 鴻勝 Hung Sing (Great Victory) was adopted by Cheung Hung Sing in 1867. Now, REMEMBER, YOU GUYS claimed Chan Heung was the one who sent Cheung Hung Sing to Fut San in 1867. Then EXPLAIN HIS PRESENCE IN FUT SAN IN 1851!!!!!!!!!!

    YOU GUYS even claimed Cheung Hung Sing had to change his original schools name! What name was Cheung Yim using in 1851 it certainly wasn't "洪圣馆" or and you claim he wasn't using this "洪勝馆"? You guys support the notion that Cheung Yim changed his name to "鴻勝" Great Victory Hung Sing in 1867. So what name was Cheung Yim using then? Guess what, YOU WON'T HAVE A LEGITIMATE ANSWER. you dug your hole too deep.

    In southern China, was this 洪勝 ever used by anyone or anything other than Cheung Hung Sing? YES. Was it by anyone in chan heung's choy lee fut? NOPE.

    This 洪圣 Hung Sing and this 洪勝 Hung Sing are not by products of Choy Lee Fut. This 洪勝 is a triad name. and this hung sing 洪圣 is in regards to the southern sea patron saint "Hung Sheng". These two names are NOT related to each other.

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    Last edited by hskwarrior; 07-31-2014 at 11:34 AM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  13. #103
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    Look at the **** lies taking place right under our noses!!!!

    JO JO Star, you say no one would have used the Hung Victory name right? especially not Cheung Hung Sing, right? But if it can apply to your lineage then of course it was used by you guys. LMAO
    look at the lies.....you should be so proud.

    陈享(1806年-1875年)字典英,号达亭,死後,被主理佛山鴻勝館之張炎譽為蔡李佛创始人,广东新会 崖門镇西京梅村人。享壽70歲

    1823年,陈享投拜李家拳傳人李友山(新会七堡人)學習五形拳,棍法和腿功。1827年,陈享去罗浮山白 鹤观拜蔡家拳傳人蔡福學習十字拳。1839年-1840年间,陈享协助林则徐训练义勇水师。鸦片战争爆发,他的弟子投入广州虎门水师衙门,英勇抗击外来侵 略。

    林則徐被免職後,陈享在1845年回到鄉間(新会崖西镇京梅村)開設洪勝主館。於是開始有洪拳的名稱。後派傳人往廣東各地開分館,前後共44所。

    陈享善八卦拳亦精五形拳,留下達亭八卦拳(又稱172式五形八卦拳)。

    So NO ONE would have used that Hung Victory name at all huh? THEN WHY ARE THEY FALSELY CLAIMING THAT THEY USE THE 洪勝 INSTEAD OF 洪圣? i recall you recently saying no one would use the
    洪勝 Hung Victory name. I guess it doesn't apply as long as it can be applied to Chan Heung, right? SO FULL OF SH1T
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by extrajoseph View Post
    Cao De-Sheng (Cho Dak-Sing) is an interesting master, his father Cao He-Shun studied with Chan Heung and later one he learned Wing Chun from Yi Jin and created Wing Chun Choy Lee Fut.
    I was interested in the three Todai. I believe they went to Hong Kong?

    Your information above is it from the internet or from your own group?
    I am actually part of Cho Family so I know about Cho Shun / Cho Dak Sing / Cho Chuen, I am interested in what other groups have heard esp in CLF circles.

  15. #105
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    JOJOStar (Extrajoseph) is so far from reality in regards to how secret societies operate it makes his attempts to mislead people crystal clear.
    This fool attempts to mislead people by claiming there was NO WAY Cheung Hung Sing would have used Hung Victory name because it was too dangerous.
    However, he failed to realize one doesn't need a visible signboard displaying the schools name to be the Hung Victory school. The only people that needed to know
    the name of his school were members of the secret society. Cheung Hung Sing didn't need to have a business card, or a huge awning with his schools name on it.
    JOJOSTAR is so caught up in this "COMMERCIAL" school concept stuff that he fails to see things right under his nose. well, that's the thing about secret societies,
    the will do things right in front of you and still keep it a secret. Cheung Hung Sing is a Hung Mun guy, Hung Mun is notorious for using metaphors, ****nyms,
    secret words and so forth and do things in the publics eye who would never be the wiser.

    In San Francisco, the Hung Sing Kwoon didn't always have a signboard telling the world they teach martial arts in this building. But people still knew.
    when our school was in the Hung Mun building in chinatown, we were known as the Red Door school because of what went on behind the red door.
    traditional triad society type of schools were never public. you almost always had to be referred to join a school. When my sigung Jew Leong taught
    at the Gee Tuk Sam Tuk there was no hung sing sign board. but everyone knew where my sigungs school was-regardless of the lack of a sign board.

    So JOJOSTAR. your theory of it being too dangerous to use the Hung Victory name is null and void. The Hung Victory name was used during Cheung Hung Sing's time
    by people other than Cheung Hung Sing as well. It belongs to Hung Mun and not Choy Lee Fut. Choy Lee Fut doesn't own the Hung Sing name, ours nor yours.
    Again, null and void is your theory on it being too dangerous to use the Hung Victory name. The secret society does what it wants to do, and will do it either in your face or in a
    fashion that's too ambiguous for you to comprehend unless you were a brother.
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 07-31-2014 at 01:14 PM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

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