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Thread: Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun of Gulao Village

  1. #1

    Post Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun of Gulao Village

    Here is some info regarding Pin Sun Wing Chun terminologies to clear up some misconceptions regarding the art. It became apparent on another recent thread that most people in the WC world are misunderstanding scope and concepts of Leung Jan's PSWC. I made some basic corrections on the terms and said I would ask my Sifu Wai-Hun “Henry” Mui for some further clarifications on PSWC terminology. I went back to reply in that thread but it looks like that thread was deleted. So here's a new one, focused on this subject.

    First off I'd like to emphasize that while the below terms define Leung Jan's 12 Fists form, people should realize that the PSWC is a SYSTEM and the smaller mini forms in the system could be thought of as 12 stations of development in learning the system. They are not just 12 self defense San Sik but mini-forms that are accompanied by a whole system of material that correlates to the stages of learning the mini-form parts of the form. It is also important to point out that this system is much different than later Gulao/Kulo san sik based point systems (Kulo-22 & Kulo-40). Those were more "public" teachings in Gulao, which really were a collection of the San Sik for village self defense. This Kulo/Gulao village San Sik is what villagers outside the gatekeeper family learned, and what outsiders may have been seen or learned in the village. In the village San Sik format, the material is broken down to basic building blocks and refers to an individual movement(s) such as tan sao for example. This in itself can be a fine system of Wing Chun fighting; just look at what can be done with Western Boxing in a similar training methodology. Therefore, Gulao popularly became known for this San Sik teaching that spread more widely, and people have assumed that this was the entire body of teaching from within Gulao, including Pin Sun Wing Chun. But this is not the case. Pin Sun is a different animal that has a complete system of development including mini forms that make up a single long form, many two-man sets, several different types and ranges of chi sao, a jong set based on the 12 Fists form, a variety of footwork drills and application drills and the long pole. Note that our long pole form is not done in a low side-body stance. Maybe because we teach the side-body stance and footwork as part of the basic curriculum and don’t save it as something to be learned much later when learning the weapons, as is the case in many other WC systems? In addition to the side body stance/footwork that can differentiate PSWC, it is also important to realize in understanding the system, that we PSWC also encompasses facing footwork and techniques in addition to the side body tactics.

    Leung Jan's PSWC system was privately kept within the Leung family and then passed to his nephew, Wong Wah Sam. In the stories I’ve heard floating around, Wong Wah Sam is just some village peasant that is practicing martial arts ineffectively that LJ feels sorry for so teaches some WC San Sik. This is false. WWS was actually LJ’s nephew and he was charged with teaching WWS the family WC system. And WWS was most likely Wong Wah Bo’s relative, too, although this part hasn’t been verified by paper document. I’m sure I recall Sifu Mui at one time saying that WWB had asked LJ to teach the system to his relative WWS (according the Fung Chiu). Wong Wah Bo and his family lived in Gulao and were close to the Leung family. In fact Yim Wing Chun had married into the Leung family and lived in the village. She was Leung Jan’s aunt! Gulao village is located amidst a river delta and was very accessible to the Red Boats.

    So I recently asked Sifu Henry Mui what he and his Sifu, Fung Chiu referred to PSWC’s system as, and what term they used for the 12 Fist’s of Leung Jan, which is what the Fung family referred to this set. I also asked him what they referred to the individual component forms that make up the LJ12 form, and what role San Sik played in the system’s terminology. Sifu is a fighter at heart and thinks it’s silly that American boys in 2014 get caught up in old Chinese terminology, and he often teaches in his broken English translations without the Chinese terms. I mostly agree with this sentiment, although as I’ve progressed in my learning the system I find it useful to know these terms to get a deeper understanding of the way the system is organized and to teach it. After getting the usual “Doesn’t matter” response and pressing him a bit further on this, Sifu explained LJ12 as “one complete circle” and the component forms as “individual circles” that strung together form the complete circle. The individual circles refer to the 12 parts of the form, and their accompanying material and applications in addition to the mini-form itself, which is typically three to five movements strung together done four times (alternating twice on each arm) when performed as part of the form. This roughly gives us the number 12 within each mini set, which in turn strung together make up the 12 Fists form. Note that the number 12 and three lines of four characters was an alpha-numeric code used by the triads at the time in their secret revolutionary communications.

    Sifu Mui said they used the term “Ga Sik” for the 12 component forms, which roughly translates as “form”. He said that they may call them “Da Tong Ga Sik”, or “individual fighting forms”. He said that the 12 Fists of Leung Jan form translated as “Leung Jan Sup Yi Sik”. When I asked him whether they’d ever refer to these forms as “San Sik”, he shook his head no and said that term referred to the single techniques and referred to a different format than the Ga Sik or Leung Jan Sup Yi Sik forms. So there we have it.

  2. #2
    Another cool term that came out of this conversation with him was Fung Chiu’s use of “Bai Jong”, which means “Ready for fight; before the contact”, which is how they would start sparring at range with basic guard hands and stance. Sifu explained that they often would start hard sparring at longer range, not pre-engaged at chi sao range. He said that he did lots and lots of hard sparring with Fung Chiu, as well as many hours of tough chi sao. About this he said, “If you get more sparring, you get more improved.” Sound advice!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    Another cool term that came out of this conversation with him was Fung Chiu’s use of “Bai Jong”, which means “Ready for fight; before the contact”, which is how they would start sparring at range with basic guard hands and stance. Sifu explained that they often would start hard sparring at longer range, not pre-engaged at chi sao range. He said that he did lots and lots of hard sparring with Fung Chiu, as well as many hours of tough chi sao. About this he said, “If you get more sparring, you get more improved.” Sound advice!
    This is something a lot of people miss out on in kung fu. Always starting at bridge, or training bridge a lot more than this, leads to not being able to bridge well when starting pre-contact, imo.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    This is something a lot of people miss out on in kung fu. Always starting at bridge, or training bridge a lot more than this, leads to not being able to bridge well when starting pre-contact, imo.
    Totally agree. And often no idea on how to move in with offense and bridge the gap.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post
    This is something a lot of people miss out on in kung fu. Always starting at bridge, or training bridge a lot more than this, leads to not being able to bridge well when starting pre-contact, imo.
    I agree, but do you think this is common - that people train mostly from bridge contact?

    When I lived in London, I trained with a Wing Chun group that had an Yip Chun background, and much of our training started from a distance (no bridge pre-established), and now that I train Wing Tsun there is a whole teaching program based around this (our Hong Kong Lat Sau training - different "entries", with the distance to the opponent being closed, and then Chi Sau skills coming into play).

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I agree, but do you think this is common - that people train mostly from bridge contact?

    When I lived in London, I trained with a Wing Chun group that had an Yip Chun background, and much of our training started from a distance (no bridge pre-established), and now that I train Wing Tsun there is a whole teaching program based around this (our Hong Kong Lat Sau training - different "entries", with the distance to the opponent being closed, and then Chi Sau skills coming into play).
    I think that in systems that have chi sao or tui shou, there are many individuals and individual schools who focus too much on those drills. Of course, not all, but a great many.

    Also, there are many that save pre-contact until much later, when the two are complementary and more useful paired much earlier, imo.

  7. #7
    Certainly Chi Sau is important, and fun... so yes, maybe sometimes people get too preoccupied with it.

    Leung Ting has a habit, when speaking in English, of coming up with an analogy that leaves people scratching their heads He was once describing Chi Sau usage and said something along the lines of, "You don't know who is calling if you don't pick up the phone."

    He was explaining the importance of covering distance, entering, bridging. If you can't do that properly (pick up the phone), then you can't let your Chi Sau training take over (know who you're talking to and have a conversation).

    I really do have to learn Cantonese .

    In one of his earlier books he wrote about how he felt the Lat Sau programs/teachings were actually more important than the Chi Sau itself, as without the Lat Sau you're not really in a position to apply what you're learning/training in Chi Sau.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I agree, but do you think this is common - that people train mostly from bridge contact?

    When I lived in London, I trained with a Wing Chun group that had an Yip Chun background, and much of our training started from a distance (no bridge pre-established), and now that I train Wing Tsun there is a whole teaching program based around this (our Hong Kong Lat Sau training - different "entries", with the distance to the opponent being closed, and then Chi Sau skills coming into play).
    I too train and start chi sau from a 'no-bridged established', or 'bai jong' position. Yes, it was something that was told and shown to me by one of Ip Chun's seniors though often not something trained as much as I did and continue to do so now. It was sometimes taught as 'more advanced' or for the 'more experienced' in the sense of moving from chi sau to gor sau and back to chi sau again, breaking off and then reengaging etc.

    Sometimes it may turn into a more recognisable sparring session but always coming back to a more structured chi sau exchange when movements begin to loose their wing chun technical flavour, due to exuberance in a more full on sparring context. Sometimes we will come back to just poon sau to settle ourselves and to bring a more technical exchange back to the foreground.

    At least for my part, my training partners and I will ebb and flow between many different ways to chi sau, gor sau or spar, in contact and out of contact in a given session. Usually we will do a three hour session, often with the same partner, and take breaks every 45 to 60 mins or so but that 45-60 mins allows us to move through all those different ranges and forms rather than just remaining in a pre contact chi sau environment. It is a lot of fun to train like this, chaotic sometimes but in a controlled way to avoid injuries.
    Last edited by Paddington; 07-01-2014 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #9
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    Here is some info regarding Pin Sun Wing Chun terminologies to clear up some misconceptions regarding the art. It became apparent on another recent thread that most people in the WC world are misunderstanding scope and concepts of Leung Jan's PSWC. I made some basic corrections on the terms and said I would ask my Sifu Wai-Hun “Henry” Mui for some further clarifications on PSWC terminology. I went back to reply in that thread but it looks like that thread was deleted. So here's a new one, focused on this subject.


    Thanks for clarify that and sharing the info Chris!

    WWS was actually LJ’s nephew and he was charged with teaching WWS the family WC system. And WWS was most likely Wong Wah Bo’s relative, too, although this part hasn’t been verified by paper document. I’m sure I recall Sifu Mui at one time saying that WWB had asked LJ to teach the system to his relative WWS (according the Fung Chiu). Wong Wah Bo and his family lived in Gulao and were close to the Leung family. In fact Yim Wing Chun had married into the Leung family and lived in the village. She was Leung Jan’s aunt! Gulao village is located amidst a river delta and was very accessible to the Red Boats.

    Very interesting! I've never heard that before!
    Last edited by KPM; 07-01-2014 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    He was once describing Chi Sau usage and said something along the lines of, "You don't know who is calling if you don't pick up the phone."
    In the days before caller ID, I presume.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    Another cool term that came out of this conversation with him was Fung Chiu’s use of “Bai Jong”, which means “Ready for fight; before the contact”, which is how they would start sparring at range with basic guard hands and stance. Sifu explained that they often would start hard sparring at longer range, not pre-engaged at chi sao range. He said that he did lots and lots of hard sparring with Fung Chiu, as well as many hours of tough chi sao. About this he said, “If you get more sparring, you get more improved.” Sound advice!
    This is good to hear!

    In HFY lineage, Bai Jong is part of our 5 Elemental Battle Array (or Ngh Jeung Chiu Meen Joi Yeng), and covers ideas regarding pre-contact set-up and facing of our opponent up to engagement. Most of our partner training for beginning students starts from Bai Jong, covering pre-contact-to-contact Kiu Sau engagement strategies as, this is typically how most fights progress.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    This is good to hear!

    In HFY lineage, Bai Jong is part of our 5 Elemental Battle Array (or Ngh Jeung Chiu Meen Joi Yeng), and covers ideas regarding pre-contact set-up and facing of our opponent up to engagement. Most of our partner training for beginning students starts from Bai Jong, covering pre-contact-to-contact Kiu Sau engagement strategies as, this is typically how most fights progress.
    Cool! Isn't if interesting to see old strategy/techniques from divergent branches tie back together with common threads.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    This is good to hear!

    In HFY lineage, Bai Jong is part of our 5 Elemental Battle Array (or Ngh Jeung Chiu Meen Joi Yeng), and covers ideas regarding pre-contact set-up and facing of our opponent up to engagement. Most of our partner training for beginning students starts from Bai Jong, covering pre-contact-to-contact Kiu Sau engagement strategies as, this is typically how most fights progress.
    Hi JP, in HFY and if I am remembering what you said elsewhere correctly, is it your knife form that you view as the primary form that trains such engagement strategies too? Likewise, how about your dummy form, do you view it as also containing many ideas about engaging from a bai jong position?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Hi JP, in HFY and if I am remembering what you said elsewhere correctly, is it your knife form that you view as the primary form that trains such engagement strategies too?
    Right or wrong, I don't think I ever said that on this forum (?)
    But, we do have a form where it's primary focus is Bai Jong, and that is HFY's Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin, as well as the many training modules that accompany it. This Chum Kiu level form and training platforms teach how to face and engage an opponent in 8 directions for 360 degrees movement, using 5 distinct footwork and 4 hand methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    Likewise, how about your dummy form, do you view it as also containing many ideas about engaging from a bai jong position?
    Sure, the opening moves in the dummy contain ideas of bai jong, as well as many instances thru out the form where we break contact with the dummy and re-engage. But, Bai Jong is not the only concept being focused on during these times and IMO the dummy form works on all 5 parts of HFY's 5 Elemental Battle Array (bai jong, jeet kiu, chum kiu, joi yeng, wui ma)
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 07-02-2014 at 08:35 AM. Reason: when in a hurry I sometimes tipe and spel pourlee :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    Here is some info regarding Pin Sun Wing Chun terminologies to clear up some misconceptions ...Wong Wah Sam was actually LJ’s nephew and he was charged with teaching WWS the family WC system. And WWS was most likely Wong Wah Bo’s relative, too, although this part hasn’t been verified by paper document. I’m sure I recall Sifu Mui at one time saying that WWB had asked LJ to teach the system to his relative WWS (according the Fung Chiu). Wong Wah Bo and his family lived in Gulao and were close to the Leung family. In fact Yim Wing Chun had married into the Leung family and lived in the village. She was Leung Jan’s aunt!
    Good story. As good as any told by different lineages. But, is there any reliable factual evidence for any of these claims?
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