Changes to this forum

[KPM]

THATS whats wrong with the forum, stop moaning!

Again, perfect example.....those that behave badly and don't want anyone to call them on it...... accuse people of "whining", "carrying on" and "moaning" when they do. Again Gene....Sanjuro....if you don't agree with what I have been saying just tell me. Because I don't want to continue to be part of a forum where rude and disrespectful behavior is acceptable. Because I have been to forums where it is NOT. We don't have to put up with it here. Not unless the moderators allow it.

[Paddington]

First, I think the 'rules' should be posted in a sticky on this sub forum as it is here where most of the issues are. Second, I agree that posts that just bash a particular sifu or lineage should be deleted and the poster warned. If said poster does not self moderate and continues to have their posts deleted, then why not just issue a temporary ban rather than go with a permanent ban? The danger here is that legitimate constructive criticism is stifled and I don't think anyone wants to see that.

Consequently, perhaps you should add to your rules or provide a guide for contributions as found on the many other discussion board communities online. The most productive discussion board communities do have a wider code of conduct that is enforced and the quality of the debate and participation levels is often far higher. I think as soon as one cries, 'but that is censorship' one occupies the other extreme pole and there is always a happy medium that can be reached. An infraction system is a good idea.

I also agree that direct attacks and name calling is just not needed. Whilst some don't mind the banter others do so it makes sense to allow it amongst those that want to banter but if someone requests that they are not addressed that way, that should be respected and enforced otherwise it becomes bullying. Again, an infraction system would work here as it incorporates the idea of a warning and allowing people to self moderate. It is less draconian and if you, the leadership, are going to use this 'freedom of speech' or 'we don't want to censor' then you are going to have to reconcile that with statements such as 'we reserve the right to ban anyone at anytime for any reason'.

Again, an infraction system and stating the rules or a code of conduct in a sticky which should, technically, be collectively agreed, would go someway to resolving this contradiction and increase both the number of contributing members and the quality of the contributions.

In summary;

1) Collectively agree a code of conduct or rules and post them as a sticky.
2) Implement an infraction system, inasmuch as warnings, so that there is transparency in mod decisions when temporary bans, permanent bans and deletions are issued.
3) Take a harsher line with those who are just derailing threads through insults and baiting others to argue and bicker.

[Paddington]

So my top 3:
[...]
2 and 3. Who cares. This is an antiquated bulletin board technology that is rapidly becoming obsolete anyway for more modern forms of social interaction. If I'm interested I'll post here, but really, who cares.
[...]

Yeah, as antiquated as the written word itself. BB and forum tech and the way people communicate online has not changed much. All that changes is who gets the majority of the audience and 'sells their digital space the best', rather than proper technological change or advancement. Even the most up-to-date plug and play forums are not that much more advanced than what we have here.

[Grumblegeezer]

Yeah, as antiquated as the written word itself. BB and forum tech and the way people communicate online has not changed much. All that changes is who gets the majority of the audience and 'sells their digital space the best', rather than proper technological change or advancement. Even the most up-to-date plug and play forums are not that much more advanced than what we have here.

I think he was getting at the fact that for a number of years now these kinds of bulletin boards in general are attracting less and less traffic as compared to Facebook and other forms of social media. Seems true in my limited experience.

Now back to the OP: Honestly, I think the atmosphere here really depends on the participants. Practically speaking, we have to moderate each other. It's like any other social group. When someone gets out of line, the rest, including the guys own buddies, will tell him to chill. So for example, when two people get caught up in a lengthy personal quarrel that hijacks a thread, the rest of us should tell them to "drop it". Other than that, I'm totally cool with strong opinions, including those that I disagree with. I may not waste my time responding, but I don't mind those kinds of posts.

So one thing that would really help in accomplishing this kind of group self-moderation is a "like", "agree", or "thanks" feature. That way if someone gets out of line and one of us calls them to task, the rest of us can agree ...or not. One thing that would really shut me up would be to have someone post back telling me that I'm out of line, and then to see that a dozen or so other forum members agree with him and have their names appear in the "thanks/agree" feature at the bottom of his post.

Gene, is there any way something like that could be added? If not, couldn't we do the same thing by adding a simple one word post saying "agree" of disagree" when necessary. Perhaps we could we put in a sticky recommending that everyone make this a "custom" here on the WC forum?

[Grumblegeezer]

THATS whats wrong with the forum, stop moaning!

Agreed --Grumblegeezer

*Included as an example. KPM means well, God bless him, but sometimes he is asking for a "Level 1 HTFU" title -- to use the criteria from my earlier post

[Faux Newbie]

Now back to the OP: Honestly, I think the atmosphere here really depends on the participants. Practically speaking, we have to moderate each other. It's like any other social group. When someone gets out of line, the rest, including the guys own buddies, will tell him to chill.

Except this is not going to happen, realistically speaking. And the fact is, there is a distinct difference between having a strong opinion and being simply rude in lieu of a strong argument, there is a difference between razzing banter with friends and outright and consistent insults to people who have a right to assume that such will not be the dominant theme of a forum where every member joins under the premise of respectful discourse.

There are people on here who are itching for a fight, and whiny when they called on it. One can look at the complaints about them as whiny, but the fact is, they are whiners about it, and say they are being bullied. They insult people every day that the mods aren't on the warpath, only behave when bans are looming, and then say they are being bullied. How much more whiny can you get?

What a lot are endorsing is "no change", except banning Hendrick. Considering that Hendrick has not been involved in any of the flame wars the last few weeks, I'm thinking CYA is involved in some members' responses.

Fourteen out of fifteen forums on here have ended up banning flamers and then instituting an approach that doesn't support this kind of flame war. This last one is a holdout, nothing more. Anyone thinking this is not the case is living an illusion. Nobody in the real world behaves this way around people they know, and even on facebook, they only do it on groups and comment sections that do not show up, unless they come from a whole family of idiots. It's not about stifling argument, it's about some people not being able to argue without insults.

[YouKnowWho]

There are people on here who are itching for a fight, ...

Most problems happened when no matter what you may train, someone will always say that a boxer, MT guy can beat the **** out of you. This is more than just to insult you in person but also to insult the system that you train.

If you

- lose a fight, someone will say that you are no good.
- win a fight, someone will say that your opponent is too weak.

That person just wants to make you look bad no matter what you are trying to say. The more that you post, the deeper that you will get into argument with that person. One day you suddenly realize that you have spent so much time to argue against someone that you don't even know who that person is. When that happen, you will understand how stupid that you were and how much valuable life time that you have wasted.

You should never respond to someone's post if that person is not friendly to you. Ignore that person's posts ASAP.

[GeneChing]

then I'm out of here and never coming back.

Well,that would solve one problem. Participation in this forum is voluntary. You leave me no choice but to post a pop song video.



Ok, that's not directed at you in particular, KPM. It's more of a comment to everyone here. You like it. You all like it. Or you'd just leave. You wouldn't post about leaving. Been there, done that, so many times here. You'd just leave. The real problem is you like it. We're all allegedly martial artists here, and that means we all like to fight. It's just the battleground that is the forum here is unique, still unregulated for the most part. Despite being an "antiquated bulletin board technology" we actually do quite well here still. We still get plenty of views. The advantage forums have over social networks is that they are searchable databases, which means we come up on web searches for all sorts of odd martial topics here and that keeps our audience.

Clearly, our little WC forum has escalated a lot lately. Is it ban time now? Do I need to draw a line in the sand for future-banned to cross? Or are some of you taking the 'noble' path and just walking away? It won't be a complicated line in the sand - no accruing infractions, nothing like that. It'll be plain and simple, just like in draconian nursery schools. Any sass and your ass is grass...or banned at least.

[Faux Newbie]

Most problems happened when no matter what you may train, someone will always say that a boxer, MT guy can beat the **** out of you. This is more than just to insult you in person but also to insult the system that you train.

If you

- lose a fight, someone will say that you are no good.
- win a fight, someone will say that your opponent is too weak.

That person just wants to make you look bad no matter what you are trying to say. The more that you post, the deeper that you will get into argument with that person. One day you suddenly realize that you have spent so much time to argue against someone that you don't even know who that person is. When that happen, you will understand how stupid that you were and how much valuable life time that you have wasted.

You should never respond to someone's post if that person is not friendly to you. Ignore that person's posts ASAP.

The thing is, what is said has no bearing on my kung fu. People who talk tough online generally lose fights in real life.

But, it can reduce the amount that we can talk about technique. Since there is no 太虚拳 forum or 摔跤 forum, what we do borders some of the discussion going on on many of the forums. If I think I can push the issue to help put such discussion at the forefront, sometimes it is worth it.

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.

That said, I respect your patience.

[Jimbo]

Those who have been on these forums from way back might remember the Southern Mantis Forum. Things got so bad on that, that the entire SPM sub-forum was eliminated. And it was probably the worst I've seen in a MA forum in terms of insults, etc.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1273249]

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.
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[Vajramusti]

Those who have been on these forums from way back might remember the Southern Mantis Forum. Things got so bad on that, that the entire SPM sub-forum was eliminated. And it was probably the worst I've seen in a MA forum in terms of insults, etc.

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Dem were lulus

[Faux Newbie]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1273251]

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.
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???????

I misworded that. It is my view that we can come on here and have some reasonable debate, and that just because a handful want to insult people all day, they don't have that privilege while agreeing with the forum rules on respectful discussion. No one is under any responsibility to avoid calling middle aged men acting like twelve year olds on their behavior just because those people might think it is thin skinned to call them out.

This is not aimed at everyone who ever flames or has a disagreement, it is specifically aimed at the handful that snipe every post right up until the mods are looking, and even then sometimes. I think even the people who don't want to hear the complaints know exactly what I'm talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone puts up a post to respond to your post, you should have pretty good idea about what may happen when you respond to that person's post.

Does he

1. want you to provide more information?
2. disagree with you 100% already?

In the

- 1st case, the continue discussion will be worthwhile. This is a true "information sharing".
- 2nd case, you may be better not to continue that discussion.

When someone said,

- WC is bad boxing, or
- SC is bad Judo, or
- long fist is bad MT, or
- ...

I just don't see any good reason to continue discussion with that person.

If you already know that no matter what information that you may present, that person will never agree with you, why do you want that discussion to be continued? Why do you even care if someone agrees with you or not?

[Faux Newbie]

When someone puts up a post to respond to your post, you should have pretty good idea about what may happen when you respond to that person's post.

Does he

1. want you to provide more information?
2. disagree with you 100% already?

In the

- 1st case, the continue discussion will be worthwhile. This is a true "information sharing".
- 2nd case, you may be better not to continue that discussion.

When someone said,

- WC is bad boxing, or
- SC is bad Judo, or
- long fist is bad MT, or
- ...

I just don't see any good reason to continue discussion with that person.

If you already know that no matter what information that you may present, that person will never agree with you, why do you want that discussion to be continued? Why do you even care if someone agrees with you or not?

I agree in individual communication. In forums, the solution tends to be more tied to changing the group dynamic than individual expectation. It usually works like one poster earlier said, moderation changes, a few people usually get banned, the dynamic changes in their absence, and then tends to remain that way after their return.

I've yet to see it change a different way.