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Thread: Throws you often find useful in your wing chun

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    It always goes back to this:
    What is WC?
    Is it a technique based system?
    That means that what is done is what makes it WC.
    Is it a principle/concept based system?
    That means that what is done is relevant to the core principles of the system, IE: HOW they are done.
    The difference?
    Well, in regards to this thread, if a throw does NOT violate the core principles of WC then it is WC ( whether the technique is in the original repatriate of techniques is irrelevant since WC, like any other MA, is/should be constantly evolving/improving which means techniques may be add OR removed at any given time).

    So, where does that leave us?

    It leaves us with the understanding that in a PRINCIPLE/CONCEPT based system ANY technique that does NOT violate those principles is a valid one and is/becomes WC.
    Good post!
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    turning throws in judo where you expose your back violates WCK principles. But actually, they also violate BJJ principles.
    To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.



    - His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
    - His free arm can hook punch on your head.
    - He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.

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    I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.

    However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    One can argue that no throw "exposes" your back because, when done correctly, the back is in a position that the opponent can't attack.
    Agree! All principle can be violated as long as you know how to "violate" it. Here is a good example for it. When he turns his back into his opponent, his opponent's left arm is disabled. His opponent's right hand is too far away from him to do anything.



    Similar discussion had been done in the Taiji thread. The Taiji principle says that you should always keep your head straight. With that in mind, all body contact throws will violate that Taiji principle.

    The question is which one is more important? To follow the:

    - WC principle? or
    - throwing art principle?

    When both principles has conflict, which one should you follow?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-15-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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  4. #94
    [QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273656]and here we get to the crux of the matter:


    So, unless it is in a WC form, then it isn't WC?
    So, WC is a technique based system.[/QUOTE-------------------

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not correct for me. But wing chun has become so hopelessly diverse folks are speaking quite different languages.
    I can't comment for anyone else but can comment from my perspective (based on a major Ip man line).

    The forms are not the total collection of techniques. They are principles of motion important for connecting the skeletal system
    in different ways for balancing, power and efficiencies including not wasting power. Chi sao is the lab where you develop more timing and
    applications against other folks. Forms are empty without chi sao and chi sao is blind without understanding the forms. A bong sao when doing the forms
    will be adjusted to handle the situation. Adjustment is one of several principles but through experience one learns how much and when to adjust.

    Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. But if you choose wing chun and get a first class teacher you can do a good job inthe TCMA tradition-
    you can defend, attack, throw, break and deal with cavities.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ...Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. But if you choose wing chun and get a first class teacher you can do a good job inthe TCMA tradition- you can defend, attack, throw, break and deal with cavities.

    Agreed, although for the last one, I'll go to the dentist. In fact I just did, ...last week.


    Actually, I better run that by my wife. She's a dental hygienist. ..."Honey, forget all that stuff you learned in school. With WC, we fill cavities with fists!!!"

    No, on the other hand, that could be taken the wrong way. Really wrong. Good thing Bawang isn't around lately.
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 07-15-2014 at 01:02 PM.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I have never been a fan of principles and concepts "set in stone", especially since all we are going on is someone else view of what they mean.
    Heck, for all we know the developer of WC may have thought that the center line principle was simply a place to start.
    .
    Exactly so

  7. #97
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    exposing my back...

    If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?

    In the following clip,

    - you have controlled your opponent's right arm.
    - You move yourself toward his right side door.
    - His left hand can't reach you.

    There is no danger to expose your back to your opponent at that moment.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-15-2014 at 05:42 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?
    I wouldn't say so. It's just that Wing Chun is much more efficient and much less of a gamble if your technique doesn't work out as hoped.

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.



    - His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
    - His free arm can hook punch on your head.
    - He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.
    Yes that judo throw execution isn't very good in that clip - he does nothing to his opponent's structure thru most of the throw entry. No kuzushi.

    I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.
    That throw doesn't have much to do with spinning fast at all. It has to do with locking the arm to yours and driving as you turn. Now there is an effective kuzushi entry where you circle away from the throw with a grip then turn into it quickly. This may be what they were referring to spinning fast but in actuality it's not that but the hard setup.

    However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
    Yes better fundamentals shut down counters. I had done this throw for a couple years before I was introduced to some of the Sambo drilling they do with it, which kind of ingrains in locking the arm and driving quickly, much different than that clip.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.



    - His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
    - His free arm can hook punch on your head.
    - He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.

    Name:  helmet_remove.jpg
Views: 366
Size:  14.4 KB

    I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.

    However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
    actually in that discussion it was pointed out that said throw was one of the higher percentage throws you see in competition, and it was also pointed out that you need to break their balance before turning, they werent unhappy with you they simply thought you were wrong and posted clips of the throw being used to prove it

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else?

    You live in the clouds mate!



    What? An indefensible position? I haven't been shown to be wrong in anything! You just haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Unlike you I have been able to study PB's method for a a good while now and have been lucky enough to been shown my errors and also listen to him speak on Ving Tsun. All you have got is guess work and you're not even really good at that.



    Did I ever get to the weapons? Really Paddington old boy you really are a bit of a tit! First you ask me how many hours I trained under PB and guessed at 30hrs and now you are questioning if I've had any weapons training.

    What about this idea? I reckon you have a limited understanding of Wing Chun. What you do know is some sort of BS *******ized version of something that is completely useless and is made up of guess work based upon your own lack of knowledge and/or intensive training.

    I have been involved in Ving Tsun for over 17 years. I have seen a lot of things from all over the place inside and outside of Hong Kong and to me you are just one of those usual idiot people that float around in WC acting like they know a bit but really you are trolling for information.

    Without people like you the world of Ving Tsun would be a better place!

    How's that sound?
    Graham, you were proved wrong when it was shown, contrary to your assertions, that there are videos of PB using trips and sweeps to destabilize and floor people. I think my asking about how much time you have spent training directly with PB is perfectly valid given your errors. It is perhaps even more valid given your previous comments that people did not get the 'correct' understanding of WSL because they only spent a few hours being directly taught by him. Equally I feel this standard should be applied to you with respects to what you understand of PB's system.

    I would also add that people have given you plenty of opportunity to talk about your understanding but you often refuse to comment. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that you do not have said knowledge and understanding. As for my understanding I don't make any claims but rather actually state my understanding through examples by sharing it. That is totally different from trolling for information, as you say, besides, forums like this exist to put ideas forward and to read others to get a better understanding. I am sorry that you fail to realise this.
    Last edited by Paddington; 07-16-2014 at 05:08 AM.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    exposing my back...

    If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?

    In the following clip,

    - you have controlled your opponent's right arm.
    - You move yourself toward his right side door.
    - His left hand can't reach you.

    There is no danger to expose your back to your opponent at that moment.
    True, no danger of exposing your back, but very little to do with WC methods, body mechanics or principle.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    True, no danger of exposing your back, but very little to do with WC methods, body mechanics or principle.
    Agreed. And while such techniques may be functional, it is more functional for a WC man to stay within the parameters of WC. If you stay within the system, the structures, steps, movements and energies all work together. A system is defined as much by what it excludes as by what it includes. LFJ and... (thought I may be loathe to admit it) Graham had a good point regarding this.
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