As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?
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As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?
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Hmmmm, I tend to find sweeps and trips are what I find most useful but I am not sure if they are considered throws proper. As some of the sweeps and trips need you to load the opponents weight on a given leg or offset slightly their centre of balance (breaking their body mass' alignment with the jic seen?) and that throws too sometimes require this, perhaps they can be discussed here?Originally Posted by Faux Newbie
Either way, given my judo background and despite there being sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I see it, my bias is Japenese;
1) ko-soto-gari 2) ko-uchi gari 3) o-uchi-gari 4) o-soto-gari 5) de-ashi-barai 6) hize-guruma and sometimes if opponent has a very narrow stance 7) sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi 8) okuri-ashi-barai 9) harai-tsuri-komi-ashi
I embed a reference chart below so you can see what I am referring to.
Although with some of the techniques I list some will put their entire body weight in to it and often land on their opponent, I have a preference for trying to stay standing when incorporating it into my wing chun training. Indeed remaining upright and stable (as much as possible) is my rationale for choosing these techniques over others in my wing chun and what I find the most useful.
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There are throws in the WCK system???????????
Where??
"Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"
Wong Shun Leung.
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Are directing that question at Faux Newbie or myself?There are throws in the WCK system???????????
Where??
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Nobody in particular!
"Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"
Wong Shun Leung.
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I would reply that there are sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I know it. I have seen many, including PB, use what I would call sweeps and trips.
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And yet if I got the chance to throw someone in a fight, he would get thrown...The real question is are you fighting or doing wing chun?There are throws in the WCK system???????????
Where??
Last edited by trubblman; 07-10-2014 at 10:29 AM.
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Hello,
Being that Wing Chun Forms are conceptual in nature, one can argue for there being throws within the system.
The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. You have to use a little imagination but it is there, at least to my eyes.
Having said that, I find many of the "throws" I utilize are really more like foot sweeps. I place my leg as an obstruction and try to make my opponent fall over them. I do not, usually, actively try to sweep someone in the conventional sense. I tend to incorporate things from my Silat training. My big thing is to not use power or strength (as I have neither) but allow my body to be the obstruction which causes my opponent to fall. Then again, in Silat there is a concept we refer to as a table. This is where when you do drop your opponent you try to drop him into a knee or the like so he feels the impact.
Wing Chun is not a "throwing" art. However, I do believe that one can very easily incorporate foot sweeps into the system without violating any of the principles. Now if you start adding in Hip Throws, Shoulder Throws and the like you are, IMHO, doing something other than Wing Chun because you will have stepped outside of the conceptual framework of the system. Mainly because in those types of throws you need to give your opponent your back for them to be applied, if even only for a moment. This would violate the concept of using the centerline. But, having said that, I would also like to point out that Wing Chun is an eclectic system developed from several different arts as as a result we should keep in mind that as our needs grow and change then perhaps our art may as well. If you find that you can utilize and apply a Hip Throw, for example, then do it as long as you can maintain your own structure and not sacrifice something in the doing.
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A good post, thanks.
On the bit I quote, now I might not be as experienced as some here but I've found other movements beyond gum sau to really help develop a throw or offset a person's balance to the extent that a foot in the way (trip) or a more active movement (sweep), will floor an opponent. For example, the folding movement of jip sau in chum kui or a tok sau with one hand and a jut/jum or small lap with another, particularly when performed on a turn with the hip leading the movement, works wonders. This simultaneous push and pull on an opponent really helps unsettle their balance.
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"Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.There are throws in the WCK system???????????
Where??
...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.
So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.
Last edited by trubblman; 07-13-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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More BS......................
So why not add anything? High kicks, jumping kicks, hook punches and grappling?
Some of you guys make me cringe. It's ok to add what YOU think is right and then you harp on about keeping things within the Wing Chun framework. Basically you all sound like you have been chucked in a swimming pool without the ability to swim.
The majority of the above comments are just laughable especially the one that said that the gum sau action in SLT could be a throw if you use you imagination! wtf?
"Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"
Wong Shun Leung.
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Ah Graham, bless you! Actually Sihing73 did not say that, the bit I place in bold that is. He said;
'Develop' a throw. That is the key bit in that sentence. Look, you are placing yourself in an indefensible position Graham, given that you have been shown to be wrong with respects to our earlier discussion of PB. I think it is erroneous of you to go to the extreme of saying, 'why not add anything?'. Most people have been careful to consider take down techniques (perhaps a better term than just throws) that maintain a 'wing chun' posture as far as is possible.
Out of interest, did you ever get to the weapon's training stage with respects to training under PB? If not did you get to the weapon's training stage through the IP Chun lineage you trained under?
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LOL. I agree, he he heh.
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What is and is not in VT. Well if you look at the forms as an organized collection of techniques with a sequence to help catalog and remember an art, then technically I can see the perspective of people who say "they are not in VT". Why? Because they are not in the collection of moves named in the form. I don't know if EVERY lineage catalogs every single move in their forms, but mine does.
If you look at chi sau though, and yes everybody does it different but one core tenet is manipulating the opponents balance by getting their weight forward and back on their toes or heels from bridge pressure then chaining techniques to score when your opponent is unbalanced. The unbalancing of the weight of an opponent is a core tenet of throwing arts also. That is the entry into a throw or takedown.
What else? many of the wing chun masters also trained in other kung fu arts. so they could blend them in sparring or fighting if they wanted, and probably practiced that. however, to maintain integrity in their version of wing chun, they would limit their students to learn the VT art first and perfect the
techniques without blending them. then add a different art later after obtaining a certain mastery first. right now mma fighters struggle with this type of thing in getting really good at one core art first then blending. that's the best approach. but mma training is pretty piecemeal now - a bjj class, a MT class, etc.
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When one develops control over one's wing chun motions- your opponent(s) can show you what to do- including throwing
when the opportunity is there.
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