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Thread: Throws you often find useful in your wing chun

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
    I very much agree with this point but think that it can be a two way process; that is having experience elsewhere, whether in classic TCMA functions or otherwise, can sometimes help show the way to mastery of wing chun motions.

    Joy, would you care to share your experience and give us an example of both a throw and a chi na movement that you can see in your forms in terms of practicing the motion?
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    The forms are for mastering motions. Interaction with the opponent(s) shows you when to throw and when to chinna. Chinna is very very close quarters work.
    In leg movements with a jong there is a leg sweep motion for instance. Biu jee form two handed motion witha leg sweep can result in a throw with experience and timing.
    Of course there is much more.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
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    It's not shuai chao- it's a wing chun foot motion.
    But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.

    Quote Originally Posted by trubblman View Post
    "Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.
    ...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.

    So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.
    But throw such as "foot sweep" will require a special body mechanic. Those special body mechanic will require "special training". It doesn't come for free.

    Some people like to say, "A kick is a step, and a step is a kick". I agree that "a kick can be a step" but I don't agree that "a step can be a kick". A kick will require much more training than just a step will require.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-13-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    IMHO, I think you are missing the point, and looking at it literally. I'm not sure if you study WC but this "saying" has deeper meanings, relevant to a mindset in training.
    - Before you have trained kick, a step is only a step.
    - After you have trained kick, a step can be a kick.

    Just for your information, I started my WC training since 1973. Here is a clip to prove it.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-13-2014 at 01:30 PM.
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  4. #64
    [QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1273575]But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.


    ------------------------------------------
    That is your opinion. You have not done enough wing chun in that Austin experience to know a sweep from a wing chun structure.
    Your video doinga wc form shows your wc limits.
    I know wc folks who have done lots of sweeps and throws etc. You have stated your opinion and I have mine-
    let's let it go at that.

  5. #65
    [QUOTE=Vajramusti;1273587]
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.


    ------------------------------------------
    That is your opinion. You have not done enough wing chun in that Austin experience to know a sweep from a wing chun structure.
    Your video doinga wc form shows your wc limits.
    I know wc folks who have done lots of sweeps and throws etc. You have stated your opinion and I have mine-
    let's let it go at that.
    ----------------------------------------
    PS "soo gurk" is a sweeping kick-it's there in dummy work, wing chun leg training, two person drills, etc.

    The wing chun that I do does not use shuai chai structure--- so a foot sweep can have variety.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.
    They don't to you because you can traverse styles in this. But for the vast majority of this forum style boundaries are very real indeed. And when coming up against one, the mind says "I don't know if I SHOULD do this".

    But throw such as "foot sweep" will require a special body mechanic. Those special body mechanic will require "special training". It doesn't come for free.
    Yes, absolutely. I've had plenty of people try to foot sweep me and get me off my feet. The guy who can do it, Seth, has put in over 10,000 reps into the kick motion and other motions. Some foot sweeps are different than others too. If you think the opening motion in your SNT form is going to be sufficient to train you to take another fighter off their feet with a foot sweep, then that's delusional.

    Some people like to say, "A kick is a step, and a step is a kick". I agree that "a kick can be a step" but I don't agree that "a step can be a kick". A kick will require much more training than just a step will require.
    You can do a step-kick as one motion. But your point is valid regarding throws and wing chun. They require MUCH more training to be effective. A hidden throw whether it was originally intended as such or not in a wing chun form is not going to make someone effective at throws in short range. They would need to be isolated and drilled.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    When you say "throw" what does that actually mean? I think sweeping or otherwise knocking someone down isn't a "throw". I can't even imagine where a throw would be in any dummy form I've seen.
    OK LFJ, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this question. Here's the first thing that I came across, and I think I'd agree with you that the structures and principles demonstrated aren't what I consider to be Wing Chun ...at least not my Wing Chun. Just too many things that don't fit. He's abandoned his WC structure, hunching over in the clinch (OK maybe that's because his opponent is so much shorter than he is), and concocts an overly complicated movement sequence to set up the throw, turning his back to his opponent, and so forth...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZoTjdDtwM

    Now this next one appears to start out better with the attacker slipping up the outside, pinning the defender's arm across and striking forward across the defender's throat. But then Pulling him back towards you over your lead leg in a "sacrifice throw"??? How about keeping forward intent and using a huen-bo to circle your leg around and behind your opponent's leg? Then your forward pressure, perhaps combined with a turn (if necessary) would uproot and toss your opponent to the ground without violating WC structure or principles.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XAAR85_TiE

    The following clip of WC Sifu Wang Zhi Peng has already been discussed at length. There are some throws in here that seem (to me) to be legit expressions of WC. For example the circle-step and arm throw at 1:36-8. I've succesfully used variations of that myself and it fell into place quite naturally in a "pure" WC context. Also, the stance disruption, hooking and sweeping with the lead leg as seen in 1:40-1:48 seems to be a logical adaptation of a pretty normal WC advancing step.

    On the other hand, most of what he shows, especially after the "belt-snapping" exercise at 2:00 and onwards seems to be straight up shuai chiao and not WC. Yet he melds the arts pretty effectively. So while it's not my WC, it's still pretty cool as far as Chinese martial arts go.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI

    Anybody else find some good clips relating to WC and throwing? Put 'em up!



    Wait, wait, I'm back. I Just found another WC (WT) throw clip. These guys come from another branch of the the same LT lineage I studied back in in the 80s -90s. After watching this, I'm about ready to rip the cute little red-stripes off my pants. Sheesh! Applied long pole punches, eh? After watching this, please don't tell me that I'm the only one who wants to beat the guy doing "applied battle punches" with a pole, ...or a shoe, or whatever else I can lay my hands on! I learned "battle punches" as a training exercise, not as an excuse to abandon centerline and fight like a ...bad Hung Gar stylist. Or, perhaps that was the point of the video. I can only hope.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvggYhD0WnM
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 07-14-2014 at 02:14 PM.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.

    john just for support or whatever after reviewing both these videos they look pretty good mechanically. this linear and the other circular foot sweeps videos both look great from stuff I've seen from my perspective.

  9. #69
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    Hey guys, here's another clip of a very different WT guy working some throws, this time Sifu Yannis Simionidis. Some of the movements are pretty flashy, but others seem more down to earth. In fact at 2:09-2:12, he does a circle-step trip with an arm-throw very similar to the one demonstrated by Wang Zhi Peng above. At 0:36-39 he also uses his lead leg to hook his opponent's knee, pull and trip much like Wang Sifu.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaD2qDUEog8
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by trubblman View Post
    "Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.
    ...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.

    So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.
    More BS......................

    So why not add anything? High kicks, jumping kicks, hook punches and grappling?

    Some of you guys make me cringe. It's ok to add what YOU think is right and then you harp on about keeping things within the Wing Chun framework. Basically you all sound like you have been chucked in a swimming pool without the ability to swim.

    The majority of the above comments are just laughable especially the one that said that the gum sau action in SLT could be a throw if you use you imagination! wtf?
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    More BS......................

    So why not add anything? High kicks, jumping kicks, hook punches and grappling?

    Some of you guys make me cringe. It's ok to add what YOU think is right and then you harp on about keeping things within the Wing Chun framework. Basically you all sound like you have been chucked in a swimming pool without the ability to swim.

    The majority of the above comments are just laughable especially the one that said that the gum sau action in SLT could be a throw if you use you imagination! wtf?
    Ah Graham, bless you! Actually Sihing73 did not say that, the bit I place in bold that is. He said;

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    [...]
    The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
    You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. [...]
    'Develop' a throw. That is the key bit in that sentence. Look, you are placing yourself in an indefensible position Graham, given that you have been shown to be wrong with respects to our earlier discussion of PB. I think it is erroneous of you to go to the extreme of saying, 'why not add anything?'. Most people have been careful to consider take down techniques (perhaps a better term than just throws) that maintain a 'wing chun' posture as far as is possible.

    Out of interest, did you ever get to the weapon's training stage with respects to training under PB? If not did you get to the weapon's training stage through the IP Chun lineage you trained under?

  12. #72
    Ah Graham, bless you! Actually Sihing73 did not say that, the bit I place in bold that is. He said;
    Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else?

    You live in the clouds mate!

    'Develop' a throw. That is the key bit in that sentence. Look, you are placing yourself in an indefensible position Graham, given that you have been shown to be wrong with respects to our earlier discussion of PB. I think it is erroneous of you to go to the extreme of saying, 'why not add anything?'. Most people have been careful to consider take down techniques (perhaps a better term than just throws) that maintain a 'wing chun' posture as far as is possible.
    What? An indefensible position? I haven't been shown to be wrong in anything! You just haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Unlike you I have been able to study PB's method for a a good while now and have been lucky enough to been shown my errors and also listen to him speak on Ving Tsun. All you have got is guess work and you're not even really good at that.

    Out of interest, did you ever get to the weapon's training stage with respects to training under PB? If not did you get to the weapon's training stage through the IP Chun lineage you trained under?
    Did I ever get to the weapons? Really Paddington old boy you really are a bit of a tit! First you ask me how many hours I trained under PB and guessed at 30hrs and now you are questioning if I've had any weapons training.

    What about this idea? I reckon you have a limited understanding of Wing Chun. What you do know is some sort of BS *******ized version of something that is completely useless and is made up of guess work based upon your own lack of knowledge and/or intensive training.

    I have been involved in Ving Tsun for over 17 years. I have seen a lot of things from all over the place inside and outside of Hong Kong and to me you are just one of those usual idiot people that float around in WC acting like they know a bit but really you are trolling for information.

    Without people like you the world of Ving Tsun would be a better place!

    How's that sound?
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else?
    Graham,

    You are of course welcome to do Wing Chun any way you want. It is after all a highly personal system with no two people doing exactly the same thing.

    My point, which seems to have been lost on you, is that Wing Chun forms are conceptual in nature. In other words, the techniques and movements do not have to be done in a set pattern for a specific result. Instead, the movements teach concepts and energy usage, imho. So, if you have the desire to look you can find things which fit outside of the box, in this case throws. Of course if you do not have the desire or need then you will never see the possibilities.

    As to just adding anything into ones Wing Chun, there are still some parameters for something to be considered Wing Chun. Of course, as we have become exposed to other, varying lineages, some of us have found that there are greater parameters available. Keeping in mind that Wing Chun was allegedly developed from several other arts, making it an eclectic system, I feel one would be foolish to argue that Wing Chun has no room to continue to grow and evolve. Of course, there is a specific framework to be built upon.

    Think of it like a car; while you can add things to your vehicle to make it perform better, those things still need to fit within the basic framework of whatever you are working with. Consider that you cannot simply take the engine from a Ford, for example, and put it into a Chevy. In almost all instance the engine will not fit into the Chevy without some major modifications if at all. Yet they are both still cars. The key to adding to ones Wing Chun, if one is predisposed to do so, is to find those parts which compliment and do not contradict ones own approach. If you are locked into a technical mindset then this will never happen. But, if you use a conceptual mindset then there are many possibilities.

    I enjoy Silat and have been working to integrate this with my Wing Chun. Doubtless some will say I no longer do Wing Chun and that is okay. My concern is whether what I do works. I remember years ago while training in WT I did not like the Arnis/Kali of Rene Latosa. Nothing against this approach it just was not for me. I opted to train in Pekiti Tirsia instead. One of my seniors came to me and told me I should train in the Latosa system since that is what "everyone" else was doing. My reply was something like: "So I can train like you do and you can kick my but, or I can train like I am doing now and I can kick your but." Needless to say I kept what I was doing as I preferred to be the one kicking but. Of course, at that point my WT and theirs was different not only in technique but in concepts. Not necessarily better or worse, but was my personal approach which fit me and still does.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    OK LFJ, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this question.
    None of those clips really addressed the question of where throws are in the dummy form. Also, yeah, I wouldn't say any of those are using Wing Chun, but adding stuff to it.

    The only one worth anything, to my eyes, is WZP's, but he teaches Shuaijiao as a separate discipline, although he combines them in that clip. The only thing I see he did that I'd say could be considered Wing Chun is like the little hook @1:46. WSL used it sometimes in chi-sau as the action from the dummy form. I don't think foot sweeps are a problem. Tripping someone isn't really a throw.

    My question for folks is where they think "throws" are found in their forms. Like the hip toss in the first clip. That guy made a point to say his arm wrap came from the CK form. So what about the hip toss then?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    More BS......................

    So why not add anything? High kicks, jumping kicks, hook punches and grappling?

    Some of you guys make me cringe. It's ok to add what YOU think is right and then you harp on about keeping things within the Wing Chun framework. Basically you all sound like you have been chucked in a swimming pool without the ability to swim.

    The majority of the above comments are just laughable especially the one that said that the gum sau action in SLT could be a throw if you use you imagination! wtf?
    LOL. I agree, he he heh.

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