Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms

[boxerbilly]

I have yet to see anyone do what he did in his films. Guys come close but there is always something lacking.

Point is, he was better than us then . If he was alive today knowing what we know now. He would be better than us still . He had what the rest of us did not.

Enough guys have come forward and stated how good he was. If Joe Lewis thought the guy was **** do you really think he would have spent all that time learning from him?

That old sparring footage. If anyone think it looks bad, compare it to his contemporaries.

[boxerbilly]

I recall seeing a Canadian movie. I forget the title and when it was made. It was about a boxer but not much ring stuff. Street stuff. They guy that played that part, he moved as good as Bruce Lee on film. But it was punches only. They captured the speed and power and snap like Lee. The finesse. It was really good choreography but it was the actor that made it great. Sorry I just can't recall anything other than that. Sorry.

So in all the knock off Lee's and other guys that became film stars, though many were great on film, none approached what he had in my opinion but some actor in a low budget Canadian film.

That said, IP MAN , is my favorite MA film at present.

[lkfmdc]

That old sparring footage. If anyone think it looks bad, compare it to his contemporaries.

1964 Kyokushinkai vs Muay Thai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zpMAVcvH5Q

[lkfmdc]

1964 same event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StQrF39iTKk

Just Muay Thai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Dtm23xEyg

Apidet would have killed Bruce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA8UCfYNRho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A_e4lNBTQ8

[boxerbilly]

Nice, thank you for those links. Never seen that before.

Was Bruce at Oyamas First event in the US? I cant recall. I know he made a couple of trips to NY. The one Gary Alexander Won. Also, is that not the one Counte Dante got disqualified from? Alexander said he knocked him out quick, yet he was disqualified? I wish someone had footage of that event and that fight.

By the way, I withdraw my previous comment except, he was still better than all of us, lol!

[pazman]

Has anyone heard of Muhammad Ali? Somebody told me he was a great fighter during Bruce's era and there is extensive fight footage of him, but it must be very rare, very secret. I can't even find what movies he was in. Did he have a black belt?

[boxerbilly]

Don't know but I think he trained with Dillman for a small time.

[MightyB]

Has anyone heard of Muhammad Ali? Somebody told me he was a great fighter during Bruce's era and there is extensive fight footage of him, but it must be very rare, very secret. I can't even find what movies he was in. Did he have a black belt?

sometimes he went by the name of Cassius Clay.

[MightyB]

Apidet would have killed Bruce

I think Bruce would've trained appropriately for the event, so we really don't and can't know the outcome. What we do know is that BL has a legacy that will live on forever. At this point, does it matter? His philosophy, whether contrived or created endures in MMA and modern self defense. His name belongs right up there with Kano and Gracie because of their profound influence in the development of modern martial arts.

[lkfmdc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apidej_Sit-Hirun

Apidej Sit-Hirun (September 1941 – April 4, 2013), born Narong Yaenprateep, was a famous muay Thai fighter.[1] Born in Samut Songkhram, Thailand, Sit-Hirun was best known for his powerful kicks. In one fight, he broke both of Sompong Charoenmuang's arms, and forced the fighter to retire. He is considered the hardest kicker in muay Thai history. Apidej simultaneously held no less than seven muay Thai and boxing titles for a period during the 1960s.[2] Thereafter, he was acclaimed as a national hero and Muay Thai Fighter of the Century by HRH King Bhumibol Adulyadej.[3] After his retirement, Apidej taught as an instructor at the Fairtex school outside Bangkok, Thailand alongside modern champions such as Yodsaenklai Fairtex and Kaew Fairtex. He died of lung cancer at the age of 72 on April 4, 2013, at Phramongkutklao Hospital, Bangkok

The Wiki source fails to mention the two guys who DIED because of his kicks.... yes, trained, very well conditioned professional fighters that DIED

[lkfmdc]

His philosophy, whether contrived or

"his" philosophy was the borrowed notes from his philosophy classes at college. Things people attribute to him actually come from people like Krishnamurti

his ideas on "combat" are the notes he took from boxer Edwin Haislet, and fencers Hugo and James Castello

His estate lost in court regarding this;

[David Jamieson]

Probably in everyone's best interest to not get confused by movie fu vs actual fighting.

All film fighting is choreographed. To the smallest move. Especially in large productions. There is nothing improvised really.

In actual fighting, it is the training that reveals the ability of the fighter.

Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters, the points about movie making need to be considered.

Film fighting, in and of itself is interesting. Bruce Lee was integral to the inspirational surge of martial arts practice in North America and Western Europe.

[lkfmdc]

Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters

Bruce Lee wanted to be a movie star, that he achieved in spades... he wanted to change the perception of asians in the west, again, major victory....

As for his accomplishments in the martial arts, much of what is attributed to his "genius" were the thoughts of other men, much of what is attributed to his "unique approach" were the approaches of others. To speak of his "fights" is to speak of second and third hand tales, many of which even on the face of them raise questions. A quick examination of available footage and his sparring is weak, the heavy bag clip is just sad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

People want to say he was unique for his age; yet in Thailand men with much more skill were actively fighting, the Kyokushinkai was also open to all challenges, Vale Tudo matches were taking place in Brazil and there was the South East Asian Cup. It is WELL KNOWN that Bruce Lee attended one of these when it was in Hong Kong. He "hid" under glasses and a hat and sat in the far back....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I liked Bruce Lee.
He pointed out common sense stuff that was being ignored ( by some) in his time and was instrumental in spreading kung fu to the world.
His MA legacy is people that value practicality over tradition WHEN the two are at odds.
Nothing wrong with that.

In short, I take Bruce Lee for what He was and disregard what he was not.

[iunojupiter]

Much like all improvements and innovations, Lee stood on the shoulders of giants, and applied their knowledge to new materials and came out with fantastic results.

Were his ideas original? No, and Yes. No, as they were not "his" but yes because he applied them to new situations and the application to those situations was "his". So argue all you want that he took from here and took from there and bla bla bla.

lkfmdc, you take your knowledge from your training in TCMA and apply it to other venues, with successful results. Are your appropriations any different than Lee's? On a basic level, no, they are not. The only difference between you and him is you don't have a cult following praising your genius. Get over it. His ideas were sound and innovative for the time and place he implemented them. That's his "genius".
So he wasn't a fighter. He trained champion fighters using his methods derived from his innovations. Kind of like you. You're not a champion fighter, but your students are.

Was Lee a martial arts god? Absolutely not. Was he instrumental in the spread and love of asian martial arts in the western world, absolutely yes.

I like Bruce Lee. Do I care that he wanted to be a movie star more than anything else and he wasn't a fighter himself? No, because on his path to achieving his goals, his contributions to the martial arts community were excellent. I'm also not surprised that so many fantastic stories surround the man, and know that generations from now, he will have a mythical quality applied to his legacy, like many before him. It's human nature, and it's bound to happen.