What constitutes a Grand Master?

[WcForMe]

Hey all my first post here but been a long time lurker. This thread is in response to the Samuel kwok chi São session posted a few weeks ago on here. That session was not the best by all accounts. But lead me to think what actually constitutes a grand master?

Is it knowledge alone or the fact that you personally have fought live opponents in real street fights etc.

Ip Chun himself always says that he has never fought with wing chun ever. I'm sure Samuel kwok has never fought for real either but could be wrong on this! That fact that they have knowledge of the system is not important? If that's the case then I don't think many practioneers can claim to be a GM.

Another point is that we all get good days and bad days. Some days I'm on it sparring well using all my tools, but another time I'm slow think too much and is just a bad day. We are all human I don't care what your title is, so logic dictates so do the GMs! From what I have seen I'm my personal opinion is that people that are good at fighting before they do wing chun seem to excel at it. Gary Lam, Wong Shun Leung etc. I'm just interested to see others point of view on this subject. I have to point out I have never met Sam Kwok, trained with him or any of his people other than Sifu Brian Desir which I train with but not directly.

[LFJ]

There is no such thing as a "grandmaster", period. It's a marketing term.

[WcForMe]

Ok fair comment so what constitutes a extremely high calibre teacher? I hate marketing as much as the next guy, but in fairness there needs to some order in classes/kwoons/organisations etc!

[Minghequan]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its not really that complicate or esoteric.
A "grand master" is ANY teacher that has taught long enough to have students that are "masters".
Is it a subjective term?
Sure because there is no clear and defined view of what a master is (some systems that use belt rankings do, most don't).

[zuti car]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

You wanted to say ...Hendrik?

[GlennR]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

Rubbish, if i say im honestly hopeless im a Grandmaster????

[Sihing73]

Unfortunately, it seems like those who form their own systems and teach often take the title of "Grandmaster"
I can name several off the top of my head who are "Grandmasters" at least for their systems.

I would tend to agree with Sanjuro_ronin as I feel his definition is correct.
As to one who teaches openly and honestly; a sad fact is that many who claim the title are far from honest.
Besides, don't stores abound of teachers who purposely taught students incorrectly or not fully as a means of testing them?

[slick69]

Its simply a teacher or teachers.
Lets not dramatize this...

[Sihing73]

Its simply a teacher or teachers.
Lets not dramatize this...

This is the WC forum; there is little else but DRAMA to be found here.

Also, to say it is simply a teacher or teachers is not really correct.
The title Grandmaster would be more specific to one who has taught others who have students of their own.
It is kind of a progression of titles based on a familial system of titles.

In a structured system with rankings then the title could be designated based on various things.

However, in the traditional approach it could be applied to your Sifu's Sifu.
BTW a person can be considered a Sifu, regardless of skill, simply due to the fact that they have students.
Although, when I was in WT I referred to my instructor as Sihing and to KK as Sifu and LT as Sigung.

[LFJ]

For what it's worth, these are terms made up by Westerners which don't correspond to anything in Chinese anyway. "Master" and "Grandmaster" have certain connotations of top-level skill that aren't there in the Chinese words.

[Jimbo]

The term 'grand teacher' would be more appropriate, IMO. I personally dislike the word 'master' at all, let alone 'grand master'. Sifu or Sigung should suffice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its semantics really.
I personally think that just "plain" Teacher is more than enough.
That said, some cultures love titles.

[Jimbo]

Its semantics really.
I personally think that just "plain" Teacher is more than enough.
That said, some cultures love titles.

When studying southern systems, my teachers were addressed as Sifu. When I studied northern styles in Taiwan, both of the teachers I had (one old and the other fairly young) were addressed as 'laoshi' (teacher). I never heard anyone using the title 'Shifu/Sifu'.

[Chun Ki]

ok since Hendrik already derailed kfo lately.

Just for your information, hundreds of wcners now learning the seven bows and wing chun 1848 every months. So this year alone, will reach a thousand. Thanks for your publicity!

Apparently Hendrik has a thousand student under him. most likely from Sergio's IWKA organization.

Does this make Hendrik an IWKA grandmaster?