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Thread: For Those that Would Re-Write Yong Chun History

  1. #1

    For Those that Would Re-Write Yong Chun History

    Read slowly and ask of yourself honestly.



    The origins of Yongchun are lost to history. Clouded and obscured by those who wished to keep hidden the secrets of it’s origin. Whether this be to keep admired and honored ancestors and their families safe from oppression or as a means to legitimize false claims of conception is unknown. In either scenario, improvable, giving researchers only oral legends and ambiguous writings from which to base their suggestive theories and conjectures. Because of the secretive nature clearly outlined documentation on origin does not appear to exist. For charlatans this is an ideal environment in which to catapult themselves to the forefront and capitalize on the desires of the ill informed and misguided.

    Yongchun’s origins aside, it’s foundation lies in the esoteric and ambiguous concepts detailed in Asian ideology. Whether these roots be Daoism, Buddhism, Wu Xing, Taiji, Ba Gua, Dian Xue, TCM or etc. is truly unknown. Simply for the fact that if the origins cannot be clearly defined and there is no real substantive evidence to conclusively determine a genetically viable paternal link, how can claims of such links be verified?

    Drawing parallels between two things is not conclusive evidence of relation. It is only suggestion and implication, and suggestion along with implication is what entices those with a want to believe to hold onto faith. Suggestion and implication are tools used by knowledgeable and experienced people to entice and direct those that are ignorant of the topic down a path they believe to be the correct one. This is the process of learning, and it is here where the problem lies. Charlatans exploit this gap in the learning curve. This gap exists for the explicit purpose of exploration. Investigation and experience can be a powerful teacher on the path of self discovery. By it’s very nature this gap is neutral and can be easily manipulated by the unscrupulous for their own selfish desires. Charlatans exploit this gap to explain, verify and substantiate their self serving claims to those that are impressionable and misled. All in all, after seeing beyond the illusion, we can only draw parallels that correspond to our own understanding and belief. No certifiable link or absolute justification can be assumed based upon belief and therefore cannot be legitimately applied to any branch of a family tree let alone to the root.

    The enigma occurs with us knowing that Yongchun was not created in a vacuum, leading us to speculate, yet ultimately be unable to prove it’s origins, conceptions and theory as a whole no matter how strongly one believes the theory applied is. Individual and group understanding is not a valid measure of truth and is not applicable to universal law. For a hypothesis to be proven it must be tested, especially if it is to disprove or addend an existing theory that is accepted as truth by the general consensus.

    Here are 12 basic questions you can ask yourself concerning Yongchun:

    1. What are the origins of my line of Yongchun?

    2. Can the origin claims be substantiated by verifiable documentation?

    3. Does the documentation coincide with the oral tradition?

    4. What are the fundamental concepts of my line of Yongchun?

    5. Are they hypothetical or theoretical?

    6. What aspects of my line of Yongchun do I hold questionable?

    7. Do they hold up under investigation?

    8. How is my line of Yongchun comparatively to other branches?

    9. What are the similarities what are the differences?

    10. Do these parallels coincide with generally accepted tradition?

    11. What are the accepted fundamental concepts of my line of Yongchun?

    12. Do I truly understand and comprehend these concepts beyond the given explanation?


    If there is but one question that you cannot answer or verify beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is nothing more than personal belief and speculation. Not all traditions, concepts, theory, application, usage or understanding is universal across all branches of Yongchun. There is to date no verifiable and accepted source from which all of Yongchun evolved. Until this can be proven through means of thorough examination of legitimate and verifiable data, it is simply speculation and personal belief. Until that day arrives when all can be proven, those with good intentions as well as charlatans, will continue to exploit this gap, some for personal gain others simply to fill a void in order to create continuity and personal sense. Regardless of the purpose, in the end it is all still simply suggestion and subject to conjecture until it can be proven otherwise

  2. #2
    Great theories,


    1.

    However, IMHO, if ones story cannot satisfy the Wck criteria as in the utube. One really doesn't have anything but stories



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhmAUXfGET0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5hYQwrQJ0E



    2.

    As an example the following is from White Crane Grandmaster Ron,

    Do you think this type of art fit into
    Wck inner gate center line play with forward pressure and short power criteria ( which is intense line up in the center line)? Certainly I don't think so. And thus, any story doesn't fit the criteria is just another story.


    http://youtu.be/vrlnqgfJ2gc

    http://youtu.be/3qPyhGcB_yQ









    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Read slowly and ask of yourself honestly.



    The origins of Yongchun are lost to history. Clouded and obscured by those who wished to keep hidden the secrets of it’s origin. Whether this be to keep admired and honored ancestors and their families safe from oppression or as a means to legitimize false claims of conception is unknown. In either scenario, improvable, giving researchers only oral legends and ambiguous writings from which to base their suggestive theories and conjectures. Because of the secretive nature clearly outlined documentation on origin does not appear to exist. For charlatans this is an ideal environment in which to catapult themselves to the forefront and capitalize on the desires of the ill informed and misguided.

    Yongchun’s origins aside, it’s foundation lies in the esoteric and ambiguous concepts detailed in Asian ideology. Whether these roots be Daoism, Buddhism, Wu Xing, Taiji, Ba Gua, Dian Xue, TCM or etc. is truly unknown. Simply for the fact that if the origins cannot be clearly defined and there is no real substantive evidence to conclusively determine a genetically viable paternal link, how can claims of such links be verified?

    Drawing parallels between two things is not conclusive evidence of relation. It is only suggestion and implication, and suggestion along with implication is what entices those with a want to believe to hold onto faith. Suggestion and implication are tools used by knowledgeable and experienced people to entice and direct those that are ignorant of the topic down a path they believe to be the correct one. This is the process of learning, and it is here where the problem lies. Charlatans exploit this gap in the learning curve. This gap exists for the explicit purpose of exploration. Investigation and experience can be a powerful teacher on the path of self discovery. By it’s very nature this gap is neutral and can be easily manipulated by the unscrupulous for their own selfish desires. Charlatans exploit this gap to explain, verify and substantiate their self serving claims to those that are impressionable and misled. All in all, after seeing beyond the illusion, we can only draw parallels that correspond to our own understanding and belief. No certifiable link or absolute justification can be assumed based upon belief and therefore cannot be legitimately applied to any branch of a family tree let alone to the root.

    The enigma occurs with us knowing that Yongchun was not created in a vacuum, leading us to speculate, yet ultimately be unable to prove it’s origins, conceptions and theory as a whole no matter how strongly one believes the theory applied is. Individual and group understanding is not a valid measure of truth and is not applicable to universal law. For a hypothesis to be proven it must be tested, especially if it is to disprove or addend an existing theory that is accepted as truth by the general consensus.

    Here are 12 basic questions you can ask yourself concerning Yongchun:

    1. What are the origins of my line of Yongchun?

    2. Can the origin claims be substantiated by verifiable documentation?

    3. Does the documentation coincide with the oral tradition?

    4. What are the fundamental concepts of my line of Yongchun?

    5. Are they hypothetical or theoretical?

    6. What aspects of my line of Yongchun do I hold questionable?

    7. Do they hold up under investigation?

    8. How is my line of Yongchun comparatively to other branches?

    9. What are the similarities what are the differences?

    10. Do these parallels coincide with generally accepted tradition?

    11. What are the accepted fundamental concepts of my line of Yongchun?

    12. Do I truly understand and comprehend these concepts beyond the given explanation?


    If there is but one question that you cannot answer or verify beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is nothing more than personal belief and speculation. Not all traditions, concepts, theory, application, usage or understanding is universal across all branches of Yongchun. There is to date no verifiable and accepted source from which all of Yongchun evolved. Until this can be proven through means of thorough examination of legitimate and verifiable data, it is simply speculation and personal belief. Until that day arrives when all can be proven, those with good intentions as well as charlatans, will continue to exploit this gap, some for personal gain others simply to fill a void in order to create continuity and personal sense. Regardless of the purpose, in the end it is all still simply suggestion and subject to conjecture until it can be proven otherwise
    Last edited by Hendrik; 09-23-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  3. #3
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    Great theories,


    1.

    However, IMHO, if ones story cannot satisfy the Wck criteria as in the utube. One really doesn't have anything but stories



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhmAUXfGET0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5hYQwrQJ0E
    What a load of made up "i wish it was" nonsense.

    The original post is spot on and your reply, and videos posted, are the exact thing he is talking about

    Its all conjecture



    Now, what the name of that Museum???

  4. #4
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    Last edited by PalmStriker; 09-23-2014 at 04:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post


    As an example the following is from White Crane Grandmaster Ron,
    Grandmaster??

    Are you grandmaster of Sergio's IWKA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik;
    Just for your information, hundreds of wcners now learning the seven bows and wing chun 1848 every months. So this year alone, will reach a thousand. Thanks for your publicity!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chun Ki View Post
    Grandmaster??

    Are you grandmaster of Sergio's IWKA?
    Yes, he is because he teaches Sergio his created YKWC after 2000 with eme. His WCK technology he admitted he created, but he never answer our question on who his emei sifu is. All what he teach rooted by himself only. but no root from emei.

  7. #7
    Hendrik and Others:

    The point is being overlooked. Re-read the post and apply the questions to yourselves as well as to one another. If you can't subjectively pose these questions to yourself and answer them in an unbiased fashion, you are simply lying to yourself. Delusion stems from faith in a belief that one wishes to be true. In the grand scheme of things one's personal belief is only applicable to oneself and can be relayed to those that are like-minded and easily manipulated and programmed because they have a similar belief structure. It cannot be held as truth to a larger population based simply on simularities of custom and tradition. If this were true a religion like Christianity would not have so many factions it would be a unified entity.

    It does not matter what one believes unless it can definatively be proven. Until evidence and data that can be subjectively examined by certified experts can be verified, it is still simply speculation. It does not matter if the information is true, useful, revoluntionary, inventive, subjective, educational or inspiring. Until it is proven to be original in essence it cannot be claimed as such.

    Your personal beliefs are just that, yours. You may find some that concur with your assumptions and ideology but this does'nt mean that what you believe is factual truth, and to make claims of such is paramount to fraud, regardless of intention.

    There is truth and then there is everything else. So I ask you how do your claims hold up under scrutiny?
    Last edited by dlcox; 09-23-2014 at 08:39 PM.

  8. #8
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    In Hendrik's video on "Wck Jin" he talks about "borrowing ground force" as if it's a concept unique to White Crane that was the source for Wing Chun "engine" development.

    力从地起 "Force rises from the ground" is a common concept in the majority of TCMAs. How does he know it came to Wing Chun through White Crane and not any other system?

    Fact is, he is very naive and ignorant of TCMAs in general and has fabricated his own creation myth which he is peddling as the truth.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    In Hendrik's video on "Wck Jin" he talks about "borrowing ground force" as if it's a concept unique to White Crane that was the source for Wing Chun "engine" development.

    力从地起 "Force rises from the ground" is a common concept in the majority of TCMAs. How does he know it came to Wing Chun through White Crane and not any other system?

    Fact is, he is very naive and ignorant of TCMAs in general and has fabricated his own creation myth which he is peddling as the truth.


    Sorry, it is not the song Shan shao Lin way, that is for sure.



    力从地起 "Force rises from the ground" is particular,
    there is a book published in Taiwan by many white crane masters describing fujian white crane Jin in details, what I present in the video is the common denominator of these white crane masters' presentation.



    With emei and white crane , one develop the inner gate center line Jin accord to Wck center line capture which is now named as "forward pressure" of Wck.

    As clear as that.


    Just because you are very naive and ignorant and clueless on the topic, don't put yourself in the expert sit.



    Btw, wcners who has adapted the white crane and emei technology fusion improve their Jin handling atleast double. It is your lost keep thinking song Shang. LOL
    Last edited by Hendrik; 09-23-2014 at 09:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ccwayne View Post
    Yes, he is because he teaches Sergio his created YKWC after 2000 with eme. His WCK technology he admitted he created, but he never answer our question on who his emei sifu is. All what he teach rooted by himself only. but no root from emei.
    LoL!

    Same old Wayne Yung, you are just jealous because you don't have this wing chun 1848 technology ,
    and can't take it that I share to Sergio for free.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Sorry, it is not the song Shan shao Lin way, that is for sure.
    Bullsh!t, Hendrik. Who was your teacher of traditional systems from the Songshan region for you to know anything for sure about it? All the systems from there have this concept. All the Chinese internal arts have it. Virtually every TCMA is familiar with this concept. To say it is a concept unique only to White Crane is pure ignorance!

  12. #12
    Hendrik, Hendrik, Hendrik .... I'm no "Grandmaster" ... I'll leave such stupid claims to one such as you.

    Nope I'm just guy doing his best for the integrity of his art not sullying it by writing copious amounts of rubbish, ripping off well known Instructors, taking their information and repackaging it as my own and then lying about other Masters like you did with Sifu Lee Kong.

    No Hendrik, I'll leave the absurdity to you as your doing great job of it!
    Last edited by Minghequan; 09-24-2014 at 12:53 AM.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  13. #13
    Hendrik, earlier you posted a quite pointed accusation in my direction questioning my integrity and my right to White Crane. You then decided to take the cowards way out an removed that aspect of your post but not before I and plenty of others had seen it.

    So to answer your attempt at defaming me I attach below just a handful of my relevant qualifications.

    I have nothing to hide Hendrik.

    Can you now post your own so that we can all know you are a person of honour with nothing to hide?

    Name:  certs row.jpg
Views: 469
Size:  94.1 KB
    Last edited by Minghequan; 09-24-2014 at 12:53 AM.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

  14. #14

    Hungry Ghosts and the Vampire of Stupidity

    Like hungry ghosts you all keep shoveling it in wondering all the while why your belly isn't full or your hunger sated. Your necks are too small and won't allow sustinence to pass yet you continue to feast. The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting different results. The vampire of stupidity has struck once again! Awareness should not be drawn to your stomachs or necks, your focus should be placed on how you became a hungry ghost in the first place. To find the answers to the riddles you seek to understand, you must ask the questions you don't already have answers for.

  15. #15
    In Hendrik's video on "Wck Jin" he talks about "borrowing ground force" as if it's a concept unique to White Crane that was the source for Wing Chun "engine" development.

    力从地起 "Force rises from the ground" is a common concept in the majority of TCMAs. How does he know it came to Wing Chun through White Crane and not any other system?

    Fact is, he is very naive and ignorant of TCMAs in general and has fabricated his own creation myth which he is peddling as the truth.
    Ground reaction is common to movement not just for Martial artists but for most. Is it unique? Simply no it is not.

    Ron Goninan
    China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
    White Crane Research Institute Inc
    http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
    A seeker of the way

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