Hendrick and Company tgreads all here.

[AdrianK]

while you are going through the check list to make sure all your stuff is on line, your assailant is wind milling on your a$$. I am sorry, but all this is over thinking it in way too many ways. I don't think any of it is relevent to good Wing Chun.

I don't know if any of what Hendrik is talking about is relevant to WC, but isn't that the point of this discussion board? To find out about other interesting ideas from other lineages? To grow from an exchange of knowledge and debate?

To be honest, in martial arts today, there's more underthinking than there is over. Oversimplification have made a lot of traditional arts, a joke to people. Imagine if nobody ever thought about how to make weight training more safe and effective, and instead just said "lift weights, get big". Thats just one thing that has benefited from people "overthinking" things.

[Hendrik]

have anyone try the above opening example I post? what is your observation if you had?

[LoneTiger108]

Just an observation Hendrik, but if you're saying that dancing uses this 6FV stuff more than some martial arts I agree. But tell that to everyone that criticizes me for learning 'how to perform' Wing Chun and taking the art of our system to 'operatic' levels.

Out of interests, and in a genuine attempt to try to contribute to your thread, would you consider this type of training useful to develop and open your channels? I have found it to help, but that's just me... Demo @ 1:05
http://www.youtube.com/user/FLYstudio108?feature=mhsn

[Hendrik]

Just an observation Hendrik, but if you're saying that dancing uses this 6FV stuff more than some martial arts I agree. But tell that to everyone that criticizes me for learning 'how to perform' Wing Chun and taking the art of our system to 'operatic' levels.

Out of interests, and in a genuine attempt to try to contribute to your thread, would you consider this type of training useful to develop and open your channels? I have found it to help, but that's just me... Demo @ 1:05
http://www.youtube.com/user/FLYstudio108?feature=mhsn

Thanks!

how do you think your movement handling coverage at motion compare with the Iceman and the CLF training clips in the previous post of this thread?

or what do you see different within all these clips? is there differences ? different perspective will get different result in training.

[Hendrik]

With gradual and proper loosening of tight muscles...and doing slt and ck well- opens up channels and deals with many directions...

wing chun is a TCMA and rooted in Chinese perspectives. One need not get into Chinese ideas -but the derivations from I Ching, yin/yang and 5 elements are there...

doing the art correctly gets you there without beginning from the ideas.

Suggesting- not debating.

joy chaudhuri

True.

The magic is to know what is "proper".

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks!

how do you think your movement handling coverage at motion compare with the Iceman and the CLF training clips in the previous post of this thread?

or what do you see different within all these clips? is there differences ? different perspective will get different result in training.

Hendrik, have you trained on the wooden man? Does everyone here agree that the training itself opens certain meridians by physical 'touch' on wood? Allowing us to increase speed, power and accuracy until our skin, tendons and bones are nourished and strong?

I do believe that even the simple subset I showed develops a certain 'flow' of the WCK seed. This has to be present for further training imho, all linked with what some call 5 elements and 6 joint force, or 6 harmonies, which I have described before.

From the iceman clip I would say yes, he has 6 joint force but still limited in his flexibility. Not easy to stand in front of imho but why would you want to do that anyway right!? Quite a good example of what I would call chong san or charging body, which is hard to stop but easier to avoid.

As for the Leung Jan SLT from Warriors Two, you are joking right?? This form of practise is about lap lim and studying the hand and eye movement. Waist, Stance and Body is not involved (motion-wise) as SLT is just an idea to look into, for advanced Martial Artists actually. You know this though I am sure.

A great movie, but is that a good example of SLT?? Maybe your first day of practise, but there is no stage 2, 3 etc which I have experience of. So in short it is not a good representation of good Wing Chun at all. Just actors putting out what they think it is, excentuating the main shapes and postures for the camera.

This is also what I do!! Coming from a more 'operatic' Sifu. But even I can see the limits to film and acting as I have first hand experience of what is and what isn't Wing Chun, according to my lineage anyhow.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

So, in term of Snake and Crane = Wing Chun

In the Compression design of SLT core
Snake technology or snake engine is responsible for the Open up. and White Crane technology or proper center is responsible for the centerized packing.

The result of SLT training is small motion which pack with detials 20 channels + 6dfv.

Looks simple but it is not simple.

[anerlich]

The magic is to know what is "proper".

And to be careful to ensure those purporting to know what is "proper" actually do or are just trying to set themselves up as some sort of latter day Bhodisattva for the attraction of sycophants.

internet forum chit chat does not speak to those things directly enough

indeed.

Imagine if nobody ever thought about how to make weight training more safe and effective, and instead just said "lift weights, get big". Thats just one thing that has benefited from people "overthinking" things.

Much of the overthinking goes into setting up new angles or types of training programs, not to make training more safe and effective, but to have some new product to market to punters (crossfit, P90X, that weird thing on the infomercial where you kneel on it and swing from side to side for your abs etc.). It is debatable whether some or most of what is on offer is a lot better than "lift weights, get big". It is certainly more profitable.

I feel one has to regard this whole "20ch 6dfv" push with the same scepticism. Grandiose verbiage to describe the obvious - move effectively with optimal tension/relaxation, and not just in one or even two planes. Duh.

Most of the really good TCMA and non-traditional MA coaches I have met think deeply and constantly reevaluate what they do. Try John Will's, Matt Thornton's or Cane Prevost's blog, for example.

I remain unconvinced that that is what is happening here.

Looks simple but it is not simple.

BUt equally not in need of esoteric overcomplication.

[anerlich]

Does everyone here agree that the training itself opens certain meridians by physical 'touch' on wood?

Which meridians exactly? And by what physiological mechanism?

I'm unconvinced that dummy training "opens" meridians, that it even comes close to being the best way to "open" meridians, or that the meridians are necessarily "shut" or "blocked" in the first place in persons who don't train WC.

If you're going to make unsubstantiated statements, prepare to have them challenged.

Quite a good example of what I would call chong san or charging body, which is hard to stop but easier to avoid.

LOL, sure, post a video of you avoiding THAT @FlyStudio.

[imperialtaichi]

Internal or external, modern or traditional, fighting or sport; one still has to operate within sound biomechanics principles; and the ability of the body to follow complete command of the mind. The true test will always be "are these principle sound?" and "is my body capable of using these principles?"

Cheers,
John

[LoneTiger108]

I'm unconvinced that dummy training "opens" meridians, that it even comes close to being the best way to "open" meridians, or that the meridians are necessarily "shut" or "blocked" in the first place in persons who don't train WC.

I can't do anything about your state of mind dude. If you're unconvinced about the benefits of wooden man practise I would recommend you learn more than the 108/116 form.

Its documented (in my family) as having a direct effect on your skin, tendons and bones. It prepares you for interactive training (chisau) and everything you do in WCK can be trained on the wooden man. Everything.

I also understand that you can open your meridians with many other methods, but this is our method. You either get that or you don't.

If you're going to make unsubstantiated statements, prepare to have them challenged.

As always

LOL, sure, post a video of you avoiding THAT @FlyStudio.

I would sure love to have the old Iceman visit my home! It's obvious that whatever anyone posts here to show such methods would be a waste of time unless it was actually the Iceman himself, so a pretty pointless dig imho.

[AdrianK]

I can't do anything about your state of mind dude. If you're unconvinced about the benefits of wooden man practise I would recommend you learn more than the 108/116 form.

Thats the kind of attitude that holds KF back. The Scientific method is there for you to utilize bro. Rationalize and understand what you're doing, don't just accept whatever "benefits" there may or may not be.

Its documented (in my family) as having a direct effect on your skin, tendons and bones.

Then there should be scientific tests. Its not hard to test the toughness of the skin, or the density and growth(?) of the tendons and bones.

[LoneTiger108]

Thats the kind of attitude that holds KF back. The Scientific method is there for you to utilize bro. Rationalize and understand what you're doing, don't just accept whatever "benefits" there may or may not be.

Are you serious?? I mean, get out of the lab and just train bloody hard on the wooden man for a few months and you will feel the changes. That's proof in itself without the math

FWIW The kind of attitudes that hold Martial Artists back are the ones that havn't even tried the practise themselves thoroughly (or even correctly) and dismissing it on hearsay and ill mannered advice.

...Then there should be scientific tests. Its not hard to test the toughness of the skin, or the density and growth(?) of the tendons and bones.

If all you want is to do is prove things with science go and employ a scientist to do it for you because I can't waste my money. And if it was all so easy to do why can't you do it for us all for free?

Come round to Flystudio and link me up to a machine! Anything to help research and prove older methods imho.

There has been no scientific evidence to prove the existence of the meridian channels either, as far as I'm aware, but here we are

[anerlich]

I can't do anything about your state of mind dude.

If you could try to provide details of how dummy practice opens meridians and which ones, rather than meeting an enquiry by throwing up your hands and blaming your poor skills of exposition and argument on the reader, you perhaps could do something to change my mind.

If you're unconvinced about the benefits of wooden man practise I would recommend you learn more than the 108/116 form.

I'm unconvinced that you have much of an idea about the dogma you are regurgitating.

I suspect I've gone a LOT further down that road than you have. I've actually studied TCM theory and practice under a HK and Taiwan certified practitioner. And yeah, I've studied MUCH more dummy than the 108. Much more than you, I suspect. If dummy practise opens meridians, mine must be like 12 lane superhighways.

I would recommend you learn something about TCM before spouting off about the alleged related effects of dummy practice.

I find amusing to be patronised by the wilfully ignorant.

Its documented (in my family) as having a direct effect on your skin, tendons and bones.

I have little option but to conclude that said documentation must be pretty crap if your knowledge (or lack thereof) of TCM is a reflection of it, or if you can't reproduce or paraphrase parts of it here relevant to the discussion.

I guess my skin, tendons and bones must be uberaffected.

According to the Wu Xing:

Skin - metal - Lung/LI
Bones - water - Kidneys/Urinary Bladder
Tendons - wood - Liver/Gall Bladder

Am I getting warm? Or am I getting way outside your sphere of knowledge?

[Hendrik]

I feel one has to regard this whole "20ch 6dfv" push with the same scepticism. Grandiose verbiage to describe the obvious - move effectively with optimal tension/relaxation, and not just in one or even two planes. Duh.

20ch 6dfv not only tell what you tell above and further specifically tell what and how.