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Thread: Internal training of the SLT

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    One day I asked my teacher, "What's lighting speed?" He said, "When you feel that your eyes balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets."

    Why do we need to train MA? We will need to solve problems. What kind of problems do we need to solve? 90% of the time, it's just a fast speed full power punch toward our head. If that's the case, why don't we try to deal with fast powerful head punches 100 times daily? Is that the best way to train?

    If we train

    - slow then everything will look fast.
    - fast then everything will not look that fast any more.

    People may say that it's impossible to catch a fast jab. But if we try to catch fast jab 100 times daily, we will find that our successful ration of catching a fast jab will get better and better everyday. Soon that fast jab will no longer look too fast. Our bodies will finally get used to that "lighting speed". When we have achieved that, everything will look slow after that.
    Dude,

    You are stuck in your POV and it is obvious nothing will change that.
    To be unable or unwilling to look at another viewpoint is like a horse with Blinders on.
    As I said before, we will have to agree to disagree.

    Perhaps, if you trained in Wing Chun you may have a better perspective.
    Then again, perhaps you do know more than Yip Man did, after all, you seem to think there is little to no value in moving slowly. Yet Yip Man did seem to see value in moving slowly. Then again, what did he know compared to someone who does not even train Wing Chun?

    Oh, as to being unable to do a throw slowly, it would depend on the throw.
    When I did Judo we regularly trained throws at varied speeds. Take a Hip throw for example, you can move in slowly and then balance the opponent right at the instant of the actual throw. You can even, in some cases of throws, complete the throw at less than full speed and do so safely. This is part of the reason for the grips taught, your grip and release can allow you to perform the throw and even "guide" the person thrown or "uke". In many instances the person performing the throw is responsible for guiding the person being thrown. Another reason for learning to be able to direct the person being thrown so that they cannot fall safely, or at least not as easily, in actual application for combat.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Perhaps, if you trained in Wing Chun you may have a better perspective. ...
    I train WC too. This clip was taken back in 1973. that was 41 years ago. I don't train WC in slow speed either.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    When I did Judo we regularly trained throws at varied speeds.
    When you

    - do your own set up (such as hip throw), you can have the control of your own speed.
    - respond to your opponent's punch (such as haymaker), your speed will need to be the same as his speed.

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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I train WC too. This clip was taken back in 1973. that was 41 years ago. I don't train WC in slow speed either.

    As I said, we will agree to disagree.
    Maybe you could explain why Yip Man is said to have trained SNT slowly? Or did he just not know as much as you?

    I am curious as to your lineage, since that seems to be something many ask about.
    Who did or do you train WC with and for how long?
    I took Shotokan for a short time back in the day but would not say I "trained" it as the time was short.
    However, I did earn a Black Belt in Judo when I was 16, however that was a number of years ago and it would be unfair for me to say I "train" Judo as well since that was back in the 70's as well.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Who did or do you train WC with and for how long?
    I learned WC from 3 Yeh Man students, Jimmy Kao, Jeffery Law, and Alice Law. The time frame was about 2 years. WC is one of my cross training system. Do I still train the WC system? No! Do I use the WC principles? Yes! In the following "rhino strategy", you can see the application of the WC center line theory and double Tan Shou strategy.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2014 at 02:11 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Do I still train the WC system? No! Do I use the WC principles? Yes! In the following "rhino strategy", you can see the application of the WC center line theory and double Tan Shou strategy.
    Hmm, Rhino Strategy is that anything like the 1840 something DNA or Snake Engine proposed by someone else??
    Sorry, just kidding and having a little bit of fun.

    Could you provide an answer to the question I asked about why Yip Man would seem to advocate slow training if it is of no value?
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hmm, Rhino Strategy is that anything like the 1840 something DNA or Snake Engine proposed by someone else??
    Sorry, just kidding and having a little bit of fun.

    Could you provide an answer to the question I asked about why Yip Man would seem to advocate slow training if it is of no value?
    I created the "rhino" strategy, "octopus" strategy, and "double spears" strategy myself. I will test it in combat against other systems as much I can for the next 10 years. It has no history, no DNA, no engine, no force vector, no style. Anybody can use those strategies. Trying to be the "bridge" between the striking art and the grappling art is my main interest at this point of my life. The word "style" has no meaning to me at all.

    IMO, slow training can be good for health. Some people's physical shape are not in good condition, or old age, the speed training may be difficult for them. Again I don't think we should mix "combat" training and "health" training.

    The word "speed" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term.

    - Running is better than walking,
    - Walking is better than standing,
    - Standing is better than sitting,
    - Sitting is better than lying down,
    - Lying down is better than to be dead.

    There is a big space between "running" and "to be dead".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    All Taiji people train slow. I have no intention to change their mind. If we all agree with the OP point of view, there won't be any discussion for this subject.
    Are you and Hendrick related??

    I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. I do not recall mentioning or asking about Tai Chi.
    Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question? I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, it may be the reverse, but why not just answer the question? Unless of course you simply do not know?
    Should that be the case, you do not know or cannot see any benefit in slow training then you have stated your point and there is really no reason for you to keep saying it over and over again. Just mho
    Peace,

    Dave

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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Are you and Hendrick related??

    I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. I do not recall mentioning or asking about Tai Chi.
    Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question? I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, it may be the reverse, but why not just answer the question? Unless of course you simply do not know?
    Should that be the case, you do not know or cannot see any benefit in slow training then you have stated your point and there is really no reason for you to keep saying it over and over again. Just mho
    After I have put up my post, I always try to fix my spelling error and grammar error. When I do that, your next post already come in. I will never avoid questions.

    All TCMA can be trained in 3 different ways:

    1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast,
    2. health - punch out slow (easy on the elbow joint), pull back fast.
    3. performance - punch out fast, freeze there before pull back that punch.

    When you train the XingYi system for "health", you will

    - punch out slow with slow inhale,
    - pull back fast with fast exhale.

    Here is the XingYi "health training" method in Chinese - punch out slow with slow inhale, pull back fast with fast exhale".

    Name:  inhale.jpg
Views: 389
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    The "health" training is completely opposite the "combat" training. Some time people may be confused about using

    - health training in combat,
    - performance training in combat.

    When you learn a TCMA system from a teacher when he is old, sometime you may not know what he teaches you is "combat training" or "health training".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    After I have put up my post, I always try to fix my spelling error and grammar error. When I do that, your next post already come in. I will never avoid questions.

    When you train the XingYi system for "health", you will

    - punch out slow with slow inhale,
    - pull back fast with fast exhale.

    When you learn a TCMA system from a teacher when he is old, sometime you may not know what he teaches you is "combat training" or "health training".
    I happen to train in Hsing Yi as well and I can say I do not train as you suggest.
    First off, it is usually better to exhale while striking.
    Also, the Five Fists themselves are both "combat" and "healthy" in their form and application.
    In other words the Five Fists have a twofold benefit of being both healthy and combat effective regardless of how you do them, fast or slow both have the benefit of developing both aspects.

    What is your Hsing Yi training consisting of?

    So, what I am taking from your reply is that Yip Man trained or taught the SNT slowly because he was old and no longer capable of combat......is this correct?

    So my question to you is simply this: Is there any benefit to training the SNT slowly? Whether for health or not. Can training slowly for health also have any benefit or carry over for combat? I am seeking a direct answer as it relates to the SNT taught in WC, not Tai Chi, Hsing Yi or any other art.
    Peace,

    Dave

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. ...Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    So my question to you is simply this: Is there any benefit to training the SNT slowly? Whether for health or not. Can training slowly for health also have any benefit or carry over for combat?
    My direct answer to your question is:

    To train SNT slow has "health" benefit. If you have good health, it can help you in combat.

    but I also want to say:

    To train SNT fast has more "health" benefit. If you have better health, it can help you more in combat.

    I believe in fast training. You believe in slow training. It's like I'm a Christian and you are a Muslim. When a Muslim asks a Christian why does a Christian think a Muslim believe in Islam? what kind of answer do you expect to get?

    It has nothing to do with "unable" or "unwilling". Can a Christian be able to answer a Muslim why Muslim believe in Islam? I don't think so. The reason is simple. Since that Christian doesn't not believe in Islam, he won't be able to understand why Muslim believe in Islam either.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2014 at 02:59 PM.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I believe in fast training. You believe in slow training. It's like I'm a Christian and you are a Muslim. When a Muslim asks a Christian why does a Christian think a Muslim believe in Islam? what kind of answer do you expect to get?

    It has nothing to do with "unable" or "unwilling". Can a Christian be able to answer a Muslim why Muslim believe in Islam? I don't think so. The reason is simple. Since that Christian doesn't not believe in Islam, he won't be able to understand why Muslim believe in Islam either.

    You are presenting a strawman argument.
    I happen to have Muslim friends and I am a Christian.
    My Pekiti Tirsia Guru is Muslim and we have had some very interesting conversations about religion.

    But never mind, I can see you will not be able to answer the question because you simply do not know.

    When I spar or fight it is done fast, when I do Silat it is done fast.
    When I train internally it is usually done slow, sometimes fast but mostly slow.
    The two aspects or methods are parts of the same pie.

    I wish you luck in your training and maybe one day things will cease to be so one dimensional for you.
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I can see you will not be able to answer the question because you simply do not know.
    Finally we have come up with some agreement here. You are absolute right that "I simply do not know why people like to train slow" and "I will not be able to answer that question".
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I agree that the story may only be used as a illustration and may, or may not be, based on an actual event. However, it is a nice story

    So let us consider something that is known, or at least has been passed on;

    1) Yip Man is said to have practiced the SNT slowly and is reported to have taken a good deal of time to perform it. I believe I heard somewhere that it could sometimes take up to 45 minutes. Of course, my info is second hand as I was not there. However, if true, it would indicate that he saw value in training the form slowly. Perhaps not every day but on some instances.

    2) In Japanese arts you have "Do" arts which were the more refined or "sport" versions of their sister arts. Judo and Kendo for example. In the "Do" arts there is a "spiritual" element as well. What I am getting at is that an art like Judo is designed for self development as well as learning the art. Also, for Judo to work you must be able to connect with your opponent. In essence your throw will only work if you are in concert with the opponent. For example, to apply a throw when your opponent steps forward you must apply the correct amount of force, too much or too little and your throw will potentially fail. This implies a need for great sensitivity to the energy provided. Of course there are many factors involved in a good throw but disrupting balance is the keystone and to disrupt the balance one must be aware of the opponent and work with what they give you.

    3) Many of the past masters recommended studying other things in order to achieve balance in life. Some, as you suggest, started such study after already assuring their reputation. However, many also felt that it was important to achieve such a balance not only for the art they trained but for life itself.

    I have always been blessed with an attitude of "I don't care" so the idea of "Mushin" has always been of interest to me. Not claiming to have achieved this state, but will say it intrigues me and I would think that to attain it one would need something other than "fast" practice.

    Of course, meditation is like anything else..............it is not the end all or goal...............just another piece of the pie.

    Still, how many times have we heard sayings like; "it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"? Seems to me that there is an accepted agreement that combat requires a mental component. The question would seem to be how one develops that mental component. I would propose that meditation, slow training are one way of development. Then again, getting hit and learning to take punishment is another way. I will not speculate on which one is more effective or produces results faster.
    Agree it is a nice story. Who knows, it might even be true.

    I agree there's way more to life than beating lots of people in fights.

    I agree on avoiding speculation about methods ... what is needed to settle such arguments is evidence over a wide sample size.

    Dare I suggest that there are variety of approaches to competence, and that different folks may do better with different approaches? That competence may mean different things to different people? Even if something works sensationally well for you, that it may not for a majority, or even a minority, of your students?
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Dare I suggest that there are variety of approaches to competence, and that different folks may do better with different approaches? That competence may mean different things to different people? Even if something works sensationally well for you, that it may not for a majority, or even a minority, of your students?
    Sounds like a good approach.
    Perhaps this is why there are so many variations of "systems" that come from the same root.
    We may train together and learn the same things, but due to physical or mental differences reach different ends.
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

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