Internal training of the SLT

[stonecrusher69]

Why can't you meditate when you throw 200 punches on your heavy bag as fast you can and as hard as you can? Why do we have to define "meditation = slow move"?

The idea of "empty mind" is against the idea of "意气力(Yi Qi Li) - mind control breath, breath control force".

when ever you learn a new skill it's easier to do it slow first then to do it fast.When a baby learns to walk does it run first?

[YouKnowWho]

when ever you learn a new skill it's easier to do it slow first then to do it fast.

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.

[ShaolinDan]

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.

Problem with this "Activity Stream" is seeing posts on threads I'd never open.

Yes, when learning to catch (or teaching someone to catch) you do throw the ball softer...haven't you ever played catch with a kid?

And yes, most people seek out shallow water with no current when learning to swim (or choosing somewhere for their kid to swim).

When it comes to MA, a lot of people may stay in the shallow water too long, but it's totally appropriate to start there.

[Sihing73]

I am reminded of an old story:

There is a person riding in a carriage on his way to an important meeting.
While the carriage driver is trying his best to move faster the coach is bouncing all over the road.
The rider calls out to the driver; "Slow down, slow down I'm in a hurry",

There is a time to move fast and a time to move slowly.
Sometimes one needs the wisdom to understand the difference.

In life, one can sometimes achieve more by taking a short break or stepping back from the task at hand.
This can allow you to approach from a new perspective.

[Jimbo]

I am reminded of an old story:

There is a person riding in a carriage on his way to an important meeting.
While the carriage driver is trying his best to move faster the coach is bouncing all over the road.
The rider calls out to the driver; "Slow down, slow down I'm in a hurry",

There is a time to move fast and a time to move slowly.
Sometimes one needs the wisdom to understand the difference.

In life, one can sometimes achieve more by taking a short break or stepping back from the task at hand.
This can allow you to approach from a new perspective.

This is a good point.

There have been a few occasions where, due to being injured, I was forced to slow my movements down. Normally, I train with full-speed. But in these instances, it was either lighten up and train slower, or not train at all. I also had to reduce the amount, or not train at all. And yes, it did help me to see things from another perspective. It also allowed me to recover back to training at speed a lot faster and more productively than not training at all because I temporarily couldn't move fast. If someone hasn't been in that type of situation before, I guess they're lucky.

Ordinarily, things should be done with speed. But IMO, if you see things from an all-or-nothing perspective, sometimes you might miss out on the big picture. There are also instances during the learning process where *briefly* slowing down the movements can eliminate bad habits/responses before they become ingrained.

[anerlich]

Why can't you meditate when you throw 200 punches on your heavy bag as fast you can and as hard as you can? Why do we have to define "meditation = slow move"?

The idea of "empty mind" is against the idea of "意气力(Yi Qi Li) - mind control breath, breath control force".

Meditation (as generally understood everywhere outside this thread) and skill/physical training are two different things.

Unless you want to get cute with definitions, meditation is used to make you aware of and eventually calm the internal mental chatter. This may have some carryover to improved performance in combat or other physical situations due to reduced susceptibility to distraction, self-doubt and other counterproductive thoughts and emotions.

Some people suggest you want to enter a meditative state when fighting or competing, but in my judgement those that do this have done little fighting, competing, or meditating. You do not want to be watching your breath or thoughts while fighting, your attention needs to be on what's happening externally.

There are a number of fairly good books written by professional soldiers who advocate meditation and other spiritual practices to become better warriors ("The Intuitive Warrior" being one), but none of them advocate mixing up meditation with their combat training and drills.

IMO learning or practicing effective breathing to improve your MA is different again from meditation.

[Sihing73]

IMHO the whole idea behind "meditation" or breathing is to develop ones mental focus.
With the proper focus one can attain a mental state that can make one very hard to deal with.

Another story I have heard is that of a Japanese Tea Master who unintentionally insults a Samurai.
He is challenged to a fight and goes to another Samurai to learn swordsmanship.
After training for a bit it is obvious the Tea Master will be killed, he is a bit upset by this fact.
The Samurai training him has him prepare tea. The Tea Master is so focused that his mind is like a laser.
The Samurai tells him to use this focus when he meets the other and to draw the sword and prepare to die.
The next day the other Samurai recognizes the Tea Masters resolve and withdraws.

Of course this is a paraphrase but I think you get the idea.
The question is how did the Tea Master develop the mindset and laser focus?
Was it by doing the steps of the tea ceremony fast or rather by doing them slowly with total concentration and focus on each step?

While certainly the tea ceremony has little to do with combat, the attributes trained, focus and discipline seem to have carried over............at least in the story.

[stonecrusher69]

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.

When I was a kid my dad used to throw the baseball to me. He throw it slow not 90 MPH to a 7 yr old. There are gradual steps you take when learning something new. Is this to difficult to understand.

[YouKnowWho]

There are gradual steps you take when learning something new. Is this to difficult to understand.

As far as I can remember, my long fist system has never used the "slow speed" training for beginner. One day I felt lazy. I did my long fist form in slow speed. My long fist teacher said, "If you don't feel like to work out, you should not work out. The long fist system should not be trained in slow speed".

Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

[Grumblegeezer]

...Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

I can't speak to your experience in long fist, but as for throwing arts, I definitely see your point. A throw must be done at appropriate speed to work. Still, when training beginners don't you break things down and walk through the steps involved to insure proper technique before actually performing your throws?

[YouKnowWho]

when training beginners don't you break things down and walk through the steps involved to insure proper technique before actually performing your throws?

My style of Shuai-Chiao is called "fast hand wrestling". The requirement of speed will be needed on day one.

For some throws that require "set up", you may slow down your "set up" but for your "finish move", you still need to go in full speed. Since some throw doesn't require any "set up" such as your opponent just use straight punch, or haymaker to hit your head, you have to spin and throw him. The whole training will be in full speed.

IMO, the beginner level "speed training" can be as important as the beginner level "correct technique training". I prefer my guys to have "lighting speed but not too perfect techniques" than to have "perfect technique with slow speed.

If lighting speed training can make you feel young, you should hang on it as long as you can.

[stonecrusher69]

As far as I can remember, my long fist system has never used the "slow speed" training for beginner. One day I felt lazy. I did my long fist form in slow speed. My long fist teacher said, "If you don't feel like to work out, you should not work out. The long fist system should not be trained in slow speed".

Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

I agree throwing can not be done slow,but punching and kicking can.

[anerlich]

IMHO the whole idea behind "meditation" or breathing is to develop ones mental focus.
With the proper focus one can attain a mental state that can make one very hard to deal with.

Another story I have heard is that of a Japanese Tea Master who unintentionally insults a Samurai.
He is challenged to a fight and goes to another Samurai to learn swordsmanship.
After training for a bit it is obvious the Tea Master will be killed, he is a bit upset by this fact.
The Samurai training him has him prepare tea. The Tea Master is so focused that his mind is like a laser.
The Samurai tells him to use this focus when he meets the other and to draw the sword and prepare to die.
The next day the other Samurai recognizes the Tea Masters resolve and withdraws.

Of course this is a paraphrase but I think you get the idea.
The question is how did the Tea Master develop the mindset and laser focus?
Was it by doing the steps of the tea ceremony fast or rather by doing them slowly with total concentration and focus on each step?

While certainly the tea ceremony has little to do with combat, the attributes trained, focus and discipline seem to have carried over............at least in the story.

I've heard this story too. From memory, it's recounted in DT Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture".

I have to wonder how many tea masters insulted Samurai and did not survive? ... as this is essentially anecdotal evidence, may be cherry picking to support a particular position, and ... may just be fiction.

Not trashing your story, just playing devil's advocate, I've been meditating daily seeking a similar mindset, but for other reasons as well.

I think i'll be sticking with WC and BJJ training rather than taking up tea making or ikebana. Miyamoto Musashi prided himself on pursuing a range of activities, calligraphy etc. for self development .... after he had notched up a body count high enough that no one else wanted to mess with him.

You can spar slow and light in jiu jitsu, though only if the other guy is prepared to flow as well. This can actually accelerate progress up to a point ... but if you don't "keep it real" at least some of the time, your defense gets sloppy. I wouldn't try to link this sort of thing and meditation, though.

The pity is that there few double-blind studies on this sort of thing, so no one is really talking from a base of evidence

[Sihing73]

I've heard this story too. From memory, it's recounted in DT Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture".

I have to wonder how many tea masters insulted Samurai and did not survive? ... as this is essentially anecdotal evidence, may be cherry picking to support a particular position, and ... may just be fiction.

Not trashing your story, just playing devil's advocate, I've been meditating daily seeking a similar mindset, but for other reasons as well.

I think i'll be sticking with WC and BJJ training rather than taking up tea making or ikebana. Miyamoto Musashi prided himself on pursuing a range of activities, calligraphy etc. for self development .... after he had notched up a body count high enough that no one else wanted to mess with him.

You can spar slow and light in jiu jitsu, though only if the other guy is prepared to flow as well. This can actually accelerate progress up to a point ... but if you don't "keep it real" at least some of the time, your defense gets sloppy. I wouldn't try to link this sort of thing and meditation, though.

The pity is that there few double-blind studies on this sort of thing, so no one is really talking from a base of evidence

I agree that the story may only be used as a illustration and may, or may not be, based on an actual event. However, it is a nice story

So let us consider something that is known, or at least has been passed on;

1) Yip Man is said to have practiced the SNT slowly and is reported to have taken a good deal of time to perform it. I believe I heard somewhere that it could sometimes take up to 45 minutes. Of course, my info is second hand as I was not there. However, if true, it would indicate that he saw value in training the form slowly. Perhaps not every day but on some instances.

2) In Japanese arts you have "Do" arts which were the more refined or "sport" versions of their sister arts. Judo and Kendo for example. In the "Do" arts there is a "spiritual" element as well. What I am getting at is that an art like Judo is designed for self development as well as learning the art. Also, for Judo to work you must be able to connect with your opponent. In essence your throw will only work if you are in concert with the opponent. For example, to apply a throw when your opponent steps forward you must apply the correct amount of force, too much or too little and your throw will potentially fail. This implies a need for great sensitivity to the energy provided. Of course there are many factors involved in a good throw but disrupting balance is the keystone and to disrupt the balance one must be aware of the opponent and work with what they give you.

3) Many of the past masters recommended studying other things in order to achieve balance in life. Some, as you suggest, started such study after already assuring their reputation. However, many also felt that it was important to achieve such a balance not only for the art they trained but for life itself.

I have always been blessed with an attitude of "I don't care" so the idea of "Mushin" has always been of interest to me. Not claiming to have achieved this state, but will say it intrigues me and I would think that to attain it one would need something other than "fast" practice.

Of course, meditation is like anything else..............it is not the end all or goal...............just another piece of the pie.

Still, how many times have we heard sayings like; "it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"? Seems to me that there is an accepted agreement that combat requires a mental component. The question would seem to be how one develops that mental component. I would propose that meditation, slow training are one way of development. Then again, getting hit and learning to take punishment is another way. I will not speculate on which one is more effective or produces results faster.

[YouKnowWho]

he saw value in training the form slowly.

One day I asked my teacher, "What's lighting speed?" He said, "When you feel that your eyes balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets." I then asked him, "How do I develop it?" He said, "train it everyday and let your body to get used to it".

Why do we need to train MA? We will need to solve problems. What kind of problems do we need to solve? 90% of the time, it's just a fast speed full power punch toward our head. If that's the case, why don't we try to deal with fast powerful head punches 100 times daily? Is that the best way to train?

If we train

- slow then everything will look fast.
- fast then everything will look slow.

People may say that it's impossible to catch a fast jab. But if we try to catch fast jab 100 times daily, we will find that our successful ration of catching a fast jab will get better and better everyday. Soon that fast jab will no longer look fast any more.