Internal training of the SLT

[stonecrusher69]

So, in your sect, this section of the form is done slowly for meditation and qigong purposes with no relation to combat other than peripheral vision training?

NO, The practice of the SLT is performed 3 different ways. 1st your taught SLT like everyone does.Just focucing on the movements.2nd then with the breathing to .3rd then with the mind. That is how the SLT is performed. The SLT is both heigong and meditation depending on your level or what your training it for.

[T.D.O]

I was always taught to breathe independent of movement, so no one would know when your lungs are empty/full. abdominal breathing was also used for this reason (so you cant see the chest move)

Intent, for me, is placed on the tan starting from the ground, though only the elbow moves, i trick my mind to think that legs, hips, spine (whole body) is moving the tan forward ( i found that it helps with moving people/up rooting ) and on tricking the mind to feel that 1mm is an inch. ( i found this helps alot with short range power, feels like long range to me ) but no thought required when tryin to slap people about lol.

the intent part is sort of self taught.... through reading/listening/qigong and trying to figure out this internal lark. it maybe wrong, but it's changed my relaxed power/structure... a good fxxkin bit lol.


i think intent can help alot, with anything.... thats my thought, but what do i know?

[stonecrusher69]

I was always taught to breathe independent of movement, so no one would know when your lungs are empty/full. abdominal breathing was also used for this reason (so you cant see the chest move)

Intent, for me, is placed on the tan starting from the ground, though only the elbow moves, i trick my mind to think that legs, hips, spine (whole body) is moving the tan forward ( i found that it helps with moving people/up rooting ) and on tricking the mind to feel that 1mm is an inch. ( i found this helps alot with short range power, feels like long range to me ) but no thought required when tryin to slap people about lol.
In fighti
the intent part is sort of self taught.... through reading/listening/qigong and trying to figure out this internal lark. it maybe wrong, but it's changed my relaxed power/structure... a good fxxkin bit lol.


i think intent can help alot, with anything.... thats my thought, but what do i know?

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

[Vajramusti]

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

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IMHO there are lots of details in slt that does not meet the eye at first- it is the most basic yet the most advanced form.

[stonecrusher69]

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IMHO there are lots of details in slt that does not meet the eye at first- it is the most basic yet the most advanced form.

I agree there details that is not always noticeable at first. That is why you need a good teacher. Each line has there own details I just shared a few.



















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[LFJ]

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

Well, from my point of view, your approach is overcomplicated with unnecessary distractions. You won't be counting breaths in fighting. In fighting, you want to breathe naturally and exhale with exertion. So I don't see the use or connection counting breaths would have with fighting. Likewise, you don't want to be mentally focussed on your own hands in a fight or follow them with your peripheral vision. That should be dealt with through bodily awareness and your mental focus placed on your opponent so you can seek and destroy.

[Sihing73]

Well, from my point of view, your approach is overcomplicated with unnecessary distractions. You won't be counting breaths in fighting. In fighting, you want to breathe naturally and exhale with exertion. So I don't see the use or connection counting breaths would have with fighting. Likewise, you don't want to be mentally focussed on your own hands in a fight or follow them with your peripheral vision. That should be dealt with through bodily awareness and your mental focus placed on your opponent so you can seek and destroy.

In this case I think you are missing the point.

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting? Yet the entire SNT is done in this stance, without any movement.
Kind of like Chi Sau and whether or not it is fighting or even good for training to fight.

Training for certain attributes may not be the same as fighting, but the things learned and skills developed could be useful in fighting.

[LFJ]

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting?

Of course not everything is an application, but everything in the system I do is part of the development method of this approach to fighting.

I don't see how counting three full breaths during the extension of taan-sau creates an attribute of breath-control that carries over into fighting. You don't voluntarily control breathing like that in fighting. Voluntarily inhaling and exhaling would be a huge distraction, and unnecessary at that since it's already an involuntary action. Exhalation upon exertion of force on the other hand will be a useful habit.

If you have too much trouble keeping your rate of breathing in check, I'd suggest cardio training, not breath-counting while standing still.

[Sihing73]

Of course not everything is an application, but everything in the system I do is part of the development method of this approach to fighting.

I don't see how counting three full breaths during the extension of taan-sau creates an attribute of breath-control that carries over into fighting. You don't voluntarily control breathing like that in fighting. Voluntarily inhaling and exhaling would be a huge distraction, and unnecessary at that since it's already an involuntary action. Exhalation upon exertion of force on the other hand will be a useful habit.

If you have too much trouble keeping your rate of breathing in check, I'd suggest cardio training, not breath-counting while standing still.

So a question for you then:

If you do something like reverse breathing in training are you saying that the additional lung capacity and awareness of the diaphragm and how to control and regulate ones breathing has no carry over to actual combat?

While I would advocate breathing naturally and without any set patterns, an awareness of such patterns can be useful. In addition there are instances when one may wish to utilize a specific breathing pattern, exhaling while striking for example or when being struck.

One can develop greater strength and awareness of the body by weightlifting but one would hardly apply a "bench press" in combat. Does that make the attribute of greater strength or the balance developed to lift properly less pertinent?

What has been asked in this thread applies to internal training of the SNT. That should make the purpose of training with breathing methods applicable. One may practice other methods of meditation and say they are not applicable but then one must also consider the mental state which is attained and whether such can carry over to combat.

If training as such is not your cup of tea that is fine. Maybe it would not help your approach, then again perhaps it would.

[LFJ]

One can develop greater strength and awareness of the body by weightlifting but one would hardly apply a "bench press" in combat. Does that make the attribute of greater strength or the balance developed to lift properly less pertinent?

I don't fight from YJKYM either, and neither taan-sau or fuk-sau are even literal defensive hand shapes I employ in fighting, but they have a purpose in the development method of the approach to fighting I subscribed to.

So I'm not saying things have to be directly applicable, but I simply don't see how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to fight training. What kind of breath-control skill or attribute used for fighting is it supposed to develop? I see how other breath-work might serve a purpose for fight training, but not this. It seems pointless. Perhaps it can be explained how this relates to fight training.

If it's just for meditation, I think it would be more beneficial to do single-point concentration, like breath-counting while seated. The focal point of moving meditation is often on the movement, such as in walking meditation, one focuses on the steps and no longer counts breaths or tries to do both.

However one meditates is up to them, but I think when practicing SNT it is very important to have the strategy in mind and focus on developing new behaviors for combat. Shifting the mental focus to something else while doing the form would defeat the purpose, in my approach.

[Sihing73]

I don't fight from YJKYM either, and neither taan-sau or fuk-sau are even literal defensive hand shapes I employ in fighting, but they have a purpose in the development method of the approach to fighting I subscribed to.

So I'm not saying things have to be directly applicable, but I simply don't see how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to fight training. What kind of breath-control skill or attribute used for fighting is it supposed to develop? I see how other breath-work might serve a purpose for fight training, but not this. It seems pointless. Perhaps it can be explained how this relates to fight training.

If it's just for meditation, I think it would be more beneficial to do single-point concentration, like breath-counting while seated. The focal point of moving meditation is often on the movement, such as in walking meditation, one focuses on the steps and no longer counts breaths or tries to do both.

However one meditates is up to them, but I think when practicing SNT it is very important to have the strategy in mind and focus on developing new behaviors for combat. Shifting the mental focus to something else while doing the form would defeat the purpose, in my approach.

Fair enough.

I am curious about your thoughts on some who perform the SNT with movement, ie: shifting or stepping.
I am also curious about your thoughts regarding the reversal of movement of the Wu and Fook Sau in the SNT. In my lineage we withdraw the Fook and Extend the Wu rather the the traditional manner where they are reversed.

Mike,
If you would prefer for me to start another thread for my questions above let me know. I do not wish to hijack your thread.
Aint I a nice guy?

[YouKnowWho]

the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.

Of course you can train meditation, health, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace searching, ... along with your "combat" training in any order that you wish. Just don't label it as "combat" training because it's not.

In TCMA, there is a breathing method called "分段呼吸法(Fen Duan Hu Xi Fa)" that you break you 1 inhale (or 1 exhale) into up to maximum 7 equal parts.

You

- inhale, stop, exhale, stop,
- inhale 1/2, stop, inhale another 1/2. stop, exhale 1/2, stop, exhale another 1/2. stop,
- ...
- inhale 1/6, stop, inhale another 1/6, stop, ..., inhale the last 1/6, stop, exhale 1/6, stop, exhale another 1/6, stop, ..., exhale the last 1/6, stop,
- inhale 1/7, stop, inhale another 1/7, stop, ..., inhale the last 1/7, stop, exhale 1/7, stop, exhale another 1/7, stop, ..., exhale the last 1/7, stop,

This way when you throw fast punches, you will know how to coordinate your breathing along with your punches. This kind of breathing method can help your "combat", but the one that the OP described cannot.

[Sihing73]

Of course you can train meditation, health, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace searching, ... along with your "combat" training in any order that you wish. Just don't label it as "combat" training because it's not.
This way when you throw fast punches, you will know how to coordinate your breathing along with your punches. This kind of breathing method can help your "combat", but the one that the OP described cannot.

Please point me to the post where I said this was "combat training".
I specifically mention this is "internal training" but that some of the attributes could carry over to "combat".

Since you have brought it up; please explain to me the combat attributes trained by doing the YJKM.
Or, by doing the SNT in a static stance with only upper body movement. Or, is there really only upper body movement or does it go deeper than that?

While we are at it could you explain whether Chess or the game of Go are "combat training" as well?

[stonecrusher69]

In

- "meditation", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes no difference.
- "combat", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes big difference.

During the change from exhale to inhale, that's your body weakness. In TCMA, you train to cover your weakness at the end of your punch and when you pull your punch back. When you play offense and put your opponent into defense, your opponent won't have chance to attack you. If you inhale at that moment, you will be safe. So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

This kind of issue also exist in "combat" vs. "health" discussion. When your fist meets your opponent's face, it's good for "combat" (you knock your opponent down), but it's not good for your own "health" (you may hurt your own hand).

IMO, the "combat" guideline should be more important than "meditation" or "health" if there is a conflict.

So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

Combat is combat and meditation is meditation,there is no conflict. They are two different things.

[stonecrusher69]

In this case I think you are missing the point.

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting? Yet the entire SNT is done in this stance, without any movement.
Kind of like Chi Sau and whether or not it is fighting or even good for training to fight.

Training for certain attributes may not be the same as fighting, but the things learned and skills developed could be useful in fighting.

Yes,correct.