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Thread: Internal training of the SLT

  1. #1
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    Internal training of the SLT

    Does anyone train your SLT this way?

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    When I first started training under Sifu Roy Undem he first had me do nothing but stance work,
    When we started the SNT we performed the first section very slowly with breathing.
    The entire form, at the kwoon took about 15 minutes. However, the home training of the form was supposed to take upwards of 20 minutes.

    FWIW, when I went to Germany and entered WT the form was done faster and not slowly.
    However, it was my understanding that the slow SNT was for development purposes and was considered "Advanced"

    Doing the form slowly allows development of stance, sinking, elbow placement etc. Not that these things cannot or are not developed by doing the form more quickly. An old axiom I tend to go by is something like:

    If you can do a movement slowly you can do it quickly.
    If you can do a movement quickly you may not be able to do it slowly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    When I first started training under Sifu Roy Undem he first had me do nothing but stance work,
    When we started the SNT we performed the first section very slowly with breathing.
    The entire form, at the kwoon took about 15 minutes. However, the home training of the form was supposed to take upwards of 20 minutes.

    FWIW, when I went to Germany and entered WT the form was done faster and not slowly.
    However, it was my understanding that the slow SNT was for development purposes and was considered "Advanced"

    Doing the form slowly allows development of stance, sinking, elbow placement etc. Not that these things cannot or are not developed by doing the form more quickly. An old axiom I tend to go by is something like:

    If you can do a movement slowly you can do it quickly.
    If you can do a movement quickly you may not be able to do it slowly.
    Dave I think your missing the point. Just doing the form slow or fast
    is not the point.It's the intent that matter he behind the movements. The breathing and the mental intent is what's more important otherwise its just exercise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    Dave I think your missing the point. Just doing the form slow or fast
    is not the point.It's the intent that matter he behind the movements. The breathing and the mental intent is what's more important otherwise its just exercise.
    Please reread my post. In the second line you will see that I specifically mention breathing.
    As to intent that should be self evident. If you simply go through the motions, no matter what you are doing, you will never progress beyond a certain point.

    So, what specific breathing protocols are you referencing?
    What is it that makes your intent obvious or ingrained within the movements?
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Please reread my post. In the second line you will see that I specifically mention breathing.
    As to intent that should be self evident. If you simply go through the motions, no matter what you are doing, you will never progress beyond a certain point.

    So, what specific breathing protocols are you referencing?
    What is it that makes your intent obvious or ingrained within the movements?
    Yes, your right you did mention breathing as stated but really everyone breaths during SLT otherwise you die. What makes it different is how you breath with the movements and with mental focus that is different. The video explains the difference.
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  6. #6
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    Well to be honest it has been a while since I did SNT in this manner.
    There are various breathing methods which I would use, depending on the desired result.
    Most simply, the goal is to breath in through the nose and out through the mouth with the tongue placed against the roof of the mouth.
    When attempting to do a lengthy SNT the focus was on breathing and relaxing into a sunken horse.
    Did not really focus on how many breaths for each extension or retraction, just utilized the idea of moving so slowly that movement became imperceptible.
    The idea was not so much to focus on the arm movement but on achieving a state of no mind in movement. Not sure how much sense that makes.

    Now at other times I may do abdominal or reverse breathing while doing the form and in such cases would then add the focus on the number of breaths.
    In such cases the number of breathes completed would directly correspond with the time desired to complete the first section of the SNT.

    In addition I have also done Standing posture training or Jam Jong.

    Lately I am doing more training as regards Silat with a focus on aggressive forward movement.
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    Does anyone train your SLT this way?
    Not I.

    I of course do the opening section slowly too, but for a different reason.

    I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action. The only way for it to remain natural is to not mess with it. Counting breaths also requires attention to be placed on the numbers and cycles of breathing, occupying a part of the mental focus.

    As for mental focus, peripheral vision is good but awareness of where your hands are should come more from a bodily awareness that covers the entire body and doesn't rely on vision, that way in fighting you can focus on your opponent. If you develop this kind of bodily awareness, then again your mental focus is not occupied by following your fingertips, like counting breaths. Then you can use your mental focus entirely for the development of the behaviors and strategies we use in the system for fighting.

    What you think about while doing the form is important. Counting breaths and following fingertips are unnecessary distractions. Breathing is already involuntary and doesn't need regulating, and bodily awareness can deal with where your arms go.

    The most important idea here in SNT is how the elbow is used. That's why I perform it slowly. I don't for a second believe that standing still and doing slow movements will train you to not freakout when you're getting punched in the face. At most, it's an inefficient way to train to handle shock. Meditation may help you become a calmer person in general situations, but for dealing with the shock of being punched in the face, it's best to get used to being punched through regular sparring. There's really no way around that. Specific chi-sau drills can be helpful if freaking out, tensing up, chasing hands, and grabbing remain a problem, like the old blindfold method with applied LSJC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action.
    Agree with you 100% there.

    Many Taiji guys also use several breaths for one move to achieve their slowness. IMO, that kind of training is wrong. Each and ever single move should be equal to either one inhale or one exhale. You should use your inhale and exhale to train your elastic feeling. The 3 breaths move back and 3 breaths move forward training method not only violent the "combat" principle (because a punch with 3 breaths is just too slow to have any "combat" value), it's also not good for "health" (because your breathing doesn't coordinate with your body movement).

    As far as how fast or how slow should you train your form, if you train your form when you just

    - finish your 3 miles running, your breathing will be fast, your form speed should be fast.
    - wake up in the morning, your breathing is slow, your form speed should slow.

    You breathing speed should control your form speed.

    In "combat", you may want to throw 4 punches in 1 second. When you do hat, you should exhale, 1/5 of your lung capacity in each punch. After you have thrown 4 punches, you will still have 1/5 amount of air left in your lung (in case anything go wrong). You should never leave your lung to be completely empty.

    In other words, it's

    - OK to speed up and coordinate your singe move with partial breath.
    - not OK to slow down and coordinate your single move with multiple breaths.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-26-2014 at 02:06 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    Does anyone train your SLT this way?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We probably are on different planets- which is ok.No preaching from me.

    I do the first section of the slt at different speeds depending on the time at hand and the energy level present at the time.
    The mind should be clear aware of the details at all times. Of course breath is life and always important.
    I breathe naturally blending with the motions. Breathing will vary depending on the need.
    Not focusing in inhaling exhaling. No sanchin breathing.

  10. #10
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    agree

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Not I.

    I of course do the opening section slowly too, but for a different reason.

    I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action. The only way for it to remain natural is to not mess with it. Counting breaths also requires attention to be placed on the numbers and cycles of breathing, occupying a part of the mental focus.

    As for mental focus, peripheral vision is good but awareness of where your hands are should come more from a bodily awareness that covers the entire body and doesn't rely on vision, that way in fighting you can focus on your opponent. If you develop this kind of bodily awareness, then again your mental focus is not occupied by following your fingertips, like counting breaths. Then you can use your mental focus entirely for the development of the behaviors and strategies we use in the system for fighting.

    What you think about while doing the form is important. Counting breaths and following fingertips are unnecessary distractions. Breathing is already involuntary and doesn't need regulating, and bodily awareness can deal with where your arms go.

    The most important idea here in SNT is how the elbow is used. That's why I perform it slowly. I don't for a second believe that standing still and doing slow movements will train you to not freakout when you're getting punched in the face. At most, it's an inefficient way to train to handle shock. Meditation may help you become a calmer person in general situations, but for dealing with the shock of being punched in the face, it's best to get used to being punched through regular sparring. There's really no way around that. Specific chi-sau drills can be helpful if freaking out, tensing up, chasing hands, and grabbing remain a problem, like the old blindfold method with applied LSJC.
    good post i agree
    sincerly, eddie

  11. #11
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    the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.
    In

    - "meditation", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes no difference.
    - "combat", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes big difference.

    During the change from exhale to inhale, that's your body weakness. In TCMA, you train to cover your weakness at the end of your punch and when you pull your punch back. When you play offense and put your opponent into defense, your opponent won't have chance to attack you. If you inhale at that moment, you will be safe. So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

    This kind of issue also exist in "combat" vs. "health" discussion. When your fist meets your opponent's face, it's good for "combat" (you knock your opponent down), but it's not good for your own "health" (you may hurt your own hand).

    IMO, the "combat" guideline should be more important than "meditation" or "health" if there is a conflict.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-26-2014 at 07:33 PM.
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    I was taught the three breath cycle on the movements at my current school. If you're feeling wild and crazy, you can take it to four.

    I get the combat-specific thing, but I don't usually defend myself by moving my hands slowly forward or backward so I don't really see how it combat-specific breathing applies to this specific movement, which IMO is only vaguely combat-specific. In this case, indeed, when exhalation changes to inhalation doesn't make much difference.

    My teacher includes a long bridge strike after the huen sao going forward, and specific percussive breathing is integrated into that. Other parts of the form also integrate specific breathing technique and sounds. in some places one exhalation is used for multiple strikes, etc.

    I was taught the single breath per tan/fuk in the Sam Bai Fut section by my first KF instructor, whose WC and TCMA experience was a bit more varied. He did not advocate the slow practice of this section. I can see the logic, and also have to question whether spending 20 minutes to an hour on this form is the most effective use of training time.

    I'd imagine one's opinion of the effectiveness of the multiple breaths per extension/retraction regime would tally with one's opinion of the effectiveness of standing post training.

    I suggest further argument regarding the "combat specificity" of forms performance rapidly extrapolates out to the old arguments of whether forms have much point in training for combat at all, and also whether combat is or is not the end game, or only end game, of TCMA.

    Breathing integration with movement and specific drills are pervasive throughout Chinese, Japanese and Russian martial arts, and probably most others too. Other physical disciplines as diverse as yoga and powerlifting include correct and specific breathing techniques as essential parts of their practice. Both Rickson Gracie and Carlos Machado advocate specific breathing patterns as part of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training, including competitive rolling.

    Breathing is one of the few bodily functions that is both voluntary and involuntary. If seeking self-mastery, even if only at the level of fighting effectively, it would seem that, given that such emphasis is placed on it by so many martial and physical disciplines, breathing deserves your attention. Just "breathing naturally" probably ain't going to get you as far as you could possibly go.

    Elbow positioning IMO is as well or better developed by chi sao, and by sparring. Even boxers and wrestlers learn to keep their elbows in to avoid getting hammered in the ribs, liver and spleen, or clinched on, respectively.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Elbow positioning IMO is as well or better developed by chi sao, and by sparring. Even boxers and wrestlers learn to keep their elbows in to avoid getting hammered in the ribs, liver and spleen, or clinched on, respectively.
    It's more than that. It's not an elbow "position" but an elbow "behavior" that I focus on throughout the form. Each action is done in a specific way from the elbow for tactical striking and protection. If it isn't developed properly in the SNT form, even single chi-sau won't run well. If problems with elbow use arise in chi-sau, they can often be managed by referencing back to your basic form.

    But many people mentally focus on what the hand and wrist are doing in the form. This directs energy to the wrong point. Without understanding the use of the elbow, the entire system doesn't function as it should (according to my lineage). Hence the importance of instilling this behavior from the very start of one's training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.
    So, in your sect, this section of the form is done slowly for meditation and qigong purposes with no relation to combat other than peripheral vision training?

    For me, the reason it is done slowly is to focus and rewire neural connections to an unusual yet efficient behavior in combat. This way this behavior is not only voluntary, but becomes reflexive, which is later expanded on and developed under incrementally more realistic circumstances throughout the system.

    You can call that "internal" if you want, but there's no qigong or anything esoteric happening there.

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