Yang Style Tai Chi

[miscjinx]

I do not practice that form; however, I also study Chen style. The coiling aspects of that form and its practice have helped me in my normal Yang Style practice.

The continuous internal strength, coiling, and quick direction changes in Chen Style have helped me get over rough spots in my Yang Style.

So I see coiling practice as advantageous to normal Yang Style practice.

~ Eric Putkonen

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

what is your lineage of yang taiji?

The only yang style I have heard has 10 routines is actually the long form broken down into 10 routines.

I am guessing the nature of your question is dealing more with the forms at the middle of the long form? possibly fair maiden plays shuttles?!?

what are the names of the movements in this 6 th routine your mentioning?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

My teacher mentions this on applications-

Few people teach taiji shan-sou. As my experience.
Taiji application is from pushhand training. First, you should train with
all the sensitivity and huajin tech. then you got train the ying-yang and
xu-shi, which give you a pretty good eyes to watch and judge people. So
called "wo shueng, ren bei" and it is the basic. Then you you train with
power develop. Current taiji training give people a misunderstanding like
that taiji doesn't need power. Actually it does and has series training
method. The difference between taiji and other martial art is that taiji
empasize to use power on most efficent way, which still need training. As a
whole, it is diffic to learn taiji from book.

It is easy to show someone how to apply ward off, roll back, brush kneee, repulse monkey and cloud hands of of push hands and examples with a student , but in actual combat it will be hard to apply.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

sorry I forgot to mentions-

wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.

[Shaolin Master]

Names :

1. Qi Xing Ba Bu
2. Kai Tian Men
3. Shen Mian Bei
4. Shang Ti Shou
5. Xia Ti Shou
6. Jue Hu Tiao Jian
7. Dan Bian Shen Ying
8. Shuang Bian Shen Ying
9. Chuan Fa Zhang
etc


Yang Lu Chan's.......

I do not practice Yang Taiji...only Zhao Bao and Wudang.

[miscjinx]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is application at its most basic level. It is easier in person that talking about it, but single whip as an application of blocking a strick and chopping the throat is the obvious one most teachers show and is usually done to large to be effective in an actual fight.

There are so many applications I don't think any one person knows them all. For single whip I came up with a nasty one that I've never seen taught by any teacher that I know. I start the sequence from fishes in eight through most of single whip. From a high punch from the opponent the fishes in eights is an effective mini-rollback with an arc that sucks the opponent forward. The fingers stab out (going for the throat, one of the pits or creases of the throat in particular) and then for single whip (in Yang Lu' Chan at least) does a small circle and punching through the center with crane's beak basically. Internalize this...really small circle driven from the center. So after the stab to the throat you internally circle the hand and thrust (punch with crane's beak). What really happens is the after the stab you torque/dig into the pit or crease as your rotate the hand along your index finger. From the dig your hand crawls up the neck to give a strike with knuckle(s) (in an upward 45 degree angle). Two movements internally looking like one externally...two strikes for the price of "one" movement. This is a fairly devestating strike, for when me and a partner was working this out we did it as slow and soft as we could and I still hit him too hard (the neck being sensitive as it is). The torque and power dynamics is something else.

My old teacher "discovered" some great but unheard of applications as well. I suggest really taking a look at the form your favor...every movement, turn, weight change, etc. Taking the ends of one movement and the first part of the next like above. I took the last portion of fishes in eight and the beginning of single whip in the Yang Lu' Chan form. Watch just one hand. Perhaps your form has a tell as George Dillman and Chris Thomas describe in their forms. One hand during a movement in the form would be showing you where to strike and the other is the how to strike. Leave no stone unturned and you will be surprised what you could find within the form you do.

~ Eric Putkonen

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I dont know what you are getting at here using chinese terms cant read. If you practice xiao bao and wudang why does yang style matter to you?

can you send the names of the 10 routines and all the movements within the 10 routines? I will have a chinese yang style teacher translate them.

[Shaolin Master]

purely for the sake of conversation. Just thought someone would know.

sorry I did not know u didn't read pinyin, well anyways not important.

names of the ten ....don't know, names inside also don't know.

Rgds

PS : "Zhao" not "Xiao"

[Mighty Mungbean]

I would first like to mention how grateful I am to how found an intelligent forum in which to further explore tai chi and martial arts.
Now as, to the applicability of Yang movements I must first declare only limited knowledge. My teacher is a Wushu expert from Wuhan, China who has studied Wushu from the tender age of five. We have only touched upon push hands in the two years I've studied with him. My own practice however is a few short years older. My experience has show me that the applications will sometimes "spark" before you as they are needed.
My example comes from this summer as I was beginning my Shorin Ryu karate training. My Sensei in an effort to illustrate an application from kata suddenly burst forth and grabbed me by the throat. Unfortunately it was not Shorin Ryu that came to my rescue but Tai Chi. I immediately responded with the "toe stretching kick" of the Yang short form. Both of my hands flew to his fore arms in an inside-out motion with the outside edge of my palms striking the inside of his forearm. At the same time my foot went up and into his groin and it was only as I recognized the softness with which my foot encountered did I realize the accuracy of my strike and I tried to pull it. Luckily, this took place at my house and my Sensei is also a good friend.
My point is that I think that with practice the body gets "hardwired" to move in certain ways. In times of need the applications make themselves known. I teach a basic introductory class in the yang short form (24) I only discuss applications in terms of illusrating more concretely the individual moves themselves and perhaps as a visualization aid to aid the student in her practice.
I would not presume to teach tai chi as a martial art, although that is the way I personnally choose to study.
To the comment about Yang Jwing Ming and his tai chi applications, I will say that I attended one of his seminars awhile back and was very impressed. He is an impressive human being and his martial art is very real. I would not dismiss him so quickly.
Thanks.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Here is what my teachers said-

I know nine small heaven only by the name. I don't believe any body is good
at that in China. Don't spend much time on this.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Can anyone tell me about the Modern Yang Style?

Can it be learnt for self defence? or is it only taught for health?

I went to a guy that does massage therapy coz I broke my wrist 1 & a half years ago & it still hadn't healed fully. He also mixed some herbs into a paste which he put on my wrist. I asked him if I can continue training a hard style & he said I should train a soft style like tai chi till my wrist gets stronger. We were talkn about M.arts & he told me he teaches Modern Yang Style Tai Chi which he learnt in Taiwan & China. I asked him if he teaches the fighting applications & he said he mainly teaches for health but he does know the fighting side.
When he told me he does the modern yang style, I asked him what the difference was of the styles. He said that the other styles repeat a lot of the movements but they all end with the same result. What do u guys think of this?
His english wasn't too good so a lot of the things he said was hard to understand.

When I asked if he taught the fighting applications he seemed to be a little secretive. Are a lot of tai chi sifus secretive about the fighting applications?

[Muppet]

Hmm...

There's so much politics and bs in tai chi that it's hard to sort anything out but if the guy is being secretive then you may want to look around some more before deciding.

It helps to know at least one immediate application for each form when you practice. But once you actually start LEARNING the applications (drills, sparring, etc.) you need to have a partner.

If the guy teaches for health, who's gonna be your partner?

As for forms, it doesn't matter too much whether you're doing the orthodox 108 or just working on each form individually.

The important thing is to reasonably perfect each move so that in all parts of a move you're perfectly stable, etc.

What the linked form DOES give you is an idea of transitioning smoothly from one move to another. More importantly, it also tells you which moves the Yang masters thought were either particularly useful or needed a lot of work to perfect, because those moves are repeated over and over and over in the 108 forms.

Also of note. Of the three internal styles, tai chi probably depends the most on the ever elusive internal power, and if the teacher doesn't have the goods, it won't appear by magic.

Some moves, such as squatting single whip, are awkward and would be too slow to execute in a fight without that internal power to spring you back up.

[JAZA]

I would recommend go to Tai Chi with martial side.
Me too had an injury and back to train with Tai Chi, but even the sifu was great, most of peole were older than me and I think that doesnt motivates too much a person with martials likes.
Just a thought.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hmmm.

Not sure about the "Modern yang style", it can mean anything.
He said that he teaches motsly for health benefits but does know the martial side.

Asking him if he is willing to show it to you.

He might teach the healh side to supplement his income or use it as an additional healing therapy, this does not mean that he lacks the fighting aspects and knowledge of it.

I know many Sifu that teach "health orientated" TMA public and teach "martial orientated" TMA on a side basis or only atfer a certain time studying under him.

It all depends on the Sifu, his teaching style and how he chooses his Students.

Many good MA Instructors don't advertise publicly or make known what they do know.

Cheers.

[Brad]

Yes, well taught Yang style can be used for self defence. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "modern" Yang style though Yang also tends to be much better for health than other martial art styles.

When I asked if he taught the fighting applications he seemed to be a little secretive. Are a lot of tai chi sifus secretive about the fighting applications?

Some are while some aren't for various reasons. I think being in good health and building your strength are more important than knowing specific applications for every movement in the early stages of training.