A question of Ming era Red Fist

[Tainan Mantis]

I am looking for a description of red fist 紅拳. What type of punch is it?
Specifically the red fist that uses the character for red, as opposed to a different character such as 洪.

This shows up in Qi Jiguang's Fist Classic in several sentences such as:

補前掃轉上紅拳
Add a front sweep followed by red fist.

[RenDaHai]

I have a vague memory that a 'red fist' in the context of an individual technique refers to a palm strike, a palm flushed with blood is red. Though I am really not certain.

Perhaps the 'Shang' in the text refers to the 'upper' body as opposed to the 'next' technique, i.e below sweep the leg while above pushing with the palm. Just a conjecture.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have a vague memory that a 'red fist' in the context of an individual technique refers to a palm strike, a palm flushed with blood is red. Though I am really not certain.

I remember Ba Wang said that. But I am somewhat doubtful of that definition.
Anyway, General Qi's manual is often quite clear on the difference between palm and fist. In this case, red is fist.
In other instances where red is used fist or not is not clearly explained.

[Jimbo]

I am looking for a description of red fist 紅拳. What type of punch is it?
Specifically the red fist that uses the character for red, as opposed to a different character such as 洪.

This shows up in Qi Jiguang's Fist Classic in several sentences such as:

補前掃轉上紅拳
Add a front sweep followed by red fist.

In some cases, h0mophones were used interchangeably in CMA names.

Possibly it could also mean intent, meaning to draw blood/kill. I remember a long time ago reading a CMA book in Taiwan that had a saying that translates, "white knife leaves; red knife comes back".

Just my .02.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I remember learning a long fist form many years ago. It began with a posture where the practitioner was hold while bringing the chi to his hands, until they reddened. Then the practitioner would proceed holding the chi out to the extremities. So when I saw the words "red fist", I got it from that perspective: that the punch should should be full of chi, strong, punishing, and decisive.

mickey

[bawang]

red fist means hook to the temple. hooks cut face. red fist = blood covered fist

ming dynasty performance fights for money continues after bleeding = hong quan

[Tainan Mantis]

red fist means hook to the temple. hooks cut face. red fist = blood covered fist

ming dynasty performance fights for money continues after bleeding = hong quan

Thanks, could you tell me where I might find this information of performance fights during the Ming?
I recall once that you had come up with a hypothesis that the word hong was descended from chang-long. Don't know if I remember correctly.

[Tainan Mantis]

At this point, just following where the facts are leading me, hong refers to flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn.
The point being that this punch knocks you into unconsciousness.
General Qi has several sentences which hint at this such as.

Overtake him with a palm and he'll see a sky full of stars,
趕上一掌滿天星

When struck he is surely in danger of losing consciousness.
他受打必定昏危。

There is nothing in General Qi's writings to hint that red means the flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn, but within the oldest books of mantis, from before the time of Liang Xuexiang, it is repeatedly emphasized that the described strikes will knock the opponent into unconsciousness and when they wake up it will be a new season- the idea being that they were out for a long while.

Here is one example:

I immediately pull back my hand and return to snatch the yue point attacking that which is unprepared. Injuring the opponent’s yue point he bends his waist, I attack with the head immediately charging my head into his face and knocking him into the ‘red peaches of next spring.’

[bawang]

At this point, just following where the facts are leading me, hong refers to flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn.

lol

mantis

lol

[Tainan Mantis]

In some cases, h0mophones were used interchangeably in CMA names.

Possibly it could also mean intent, meaning to draw blood/kill. I remember a long time ago reading a CMA book in Taiwan that had a saying that translates, "white knife leaves; red knife comes back".

Just my .02.

Jimbo and Bawang thanks for your input. It seems you are coming to similar conclusions, that the fist is named after the blood on your hands.
I don't see that as the intended meaning after reading the references.

Mickey, I often tell the kids to squeeze their fists tight until it is red too.