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Thread: Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

  1. #1

    Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

    I learned from this forum that the forms below, Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan (Eight Step Linking Fist), were brought back into Shao Lin from the Hua Quan system. Supposedly, Cai Long Yun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazi...hp?article=625) may have had a hand in creating/ re-choreographing these sets. I wanted to ask if anybody knows if there was ever a 3rd set that was similarly constructed. I've read a couple of articles citing that Luo Han Shi Ba Shou, Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan, and the Wind Demon Staff (Feng Mo Gun?) were part of the original Luo Han Quan. The Luo Han Shi Ba Shou sets now coming out of Shao Lin seemed to be a mixed bag, and there has never been a standard.

  2. #2
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    Hi there,

    I know the forms your talking about. Its true they are not really Song mountain kung fu, they are popular all over China.

    There ARE many authentic song mountain Luohan 18 shou forms, which is why it has always confused me that so many schools use the hua quan one. One Luohan 18 shou in particular stands apart which I would say should be the standard but there are no videos of it. In fact when you have over 700 forms and are the most famous Kung fu style it is very strange to take forms from other clans.

    I am not certain if there is a third set like these, but I do know that both these sets have a DuiLian, a 2 man version. After this there is a HuaQuan 24shi (i think) that some people practice, it might be related. Some schools do these sets together with the standard 6 international wushu routines of chang quan.

    FengMo gun is a true Shaolin staff style. Shaolins famous staff was called the YeCha Gun, but this is the name of a buddhist demon and only really makes sense inside a temple. In the Song mountain villages FengMo gun and MeiQi and YinShou gun are more common. Though they are not the name of a particular set but the name of styles of Staff fighting and each name has many sets.

    Really any buddhist fist can be called Luohan Quan, but certainly the forms you mention are not part of original Shaolin luohan quan (if there is such a thing). Though FengMo gun MAY well be truly old Shaolin material, there are many forms with this name, no doubt some are old some are not, the sequence here is not as important as the techniques contained.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 11-03-2014 at 03:08 AM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  3. #3
    having the same names! another problem. yes, as told, that Luohan 18 hands and the 8-tep Lian Huan quan are both from Hua quan style. maybe once they'd had some roots in Shaolin, but in their current form they seem much different from Shaolin quan.

    however, having the same names makes people mistakenly mention this Luohan 18 hands form as the Shaolin 18 hands. there are articles claiming Shaolin Luohan 18 hands as having 6 different methods of fist, 1 method of elbow, 2 methods of palm, 4 methods of leg, and 5 methods of joint locking. and that of these 18 methods, a routine of 24 movements for attack and defense has been developed and so and so. this is all about this Luohan 18 hands, and irrelevant to the Shaolin Luohan 18 hands forms. (more detail on Luohan 18 hands and Luohan quan here: Wikipedia: Luohan (martial arts)#Luohan's 18 hands)


    Shaolin sets are not at all mixed bags. that's because of the confusing phenomenon of "different styles with the same names," that people mix up. not only Luohan 18 hands, but for most the other well-known extant Shaolin sets (like Hong quan, Pao quan, Tong Bi quan, Luohan quan, Chang quan, Xin Yi quan, Mi Zong quan, etc, etc,...) there is at least one totally different non-Shaolin style with exactly the same name. people and the scholars may get confused and mix these styles up with one another. you see many people, assumedly, describing a Shaolin style, while when you go along you see they've been describing a totally different non-Shaolin style with the same name all along; like the above-mentioned case of Shaolin Luohan 18 hands.
    seems vital in this Shaolin forum to have a big thread about such confusions.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-03-2014 at 03:00 AM.

  4. #4
    I think the reason why many schools gravitate to the Hua Quan version is because it is nicely constructed- not too long, 18 skills, can be practiced individually and then in a 2 man set. Shi De Yang's DVD of Luo Han 18 Hands seems to be a hodgepodge, according to Sal...so I wonder which is the standard. Any links to Hua Quan 24 Shi?

  5. #5
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    The one Deyang does is a good form, but there are many versions and every version of it has similar techniques but an often different sequence, so Sal is right, its been knocked about a bit. But its good material. However it has another name, XiaoSiHui, '4 rounds'. Its GeJue (Poem) mentions the 18 hands but I don't think this form is it. The one I am referring to is very different and beautiful, however I don't know if its the 'original' if there is one, its just particularly nice and has clearly 18 moves.

    I don't know much about 24 shi, just that I've seen people doing it, its an easy(ish) form. I think your probably right about these forms, They are clear and easy to teach and understand, especially they are easy to teach big group of students together. Still I would rather Shaolin focused on its own material.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  6. #6
    reasonable. in Hua quan, action (attack and defense applications) is clear. so, of course these Hua quan duets (2-man forms) are easy to learn, simple to understand and also effective to use in combats. they are a best choice for the folks to learn.
    compare these with Shaolin quan, in which the purposes are mostly esoterically hidden in the forms, and takes years to be learned.

    this Hua quan Luohan 18 hands has 18 basic methods (6 methods of fists, 1 method of elbow, ...), but the solo form has 24 postures (shi), then another form, which has many different methods, is coupled with this to form the duet. maybe the 24 posture Hua quan you talk about is this 24-posture solo form?

    ** the problem with Shaolin Luohan 18 hands form was long ago solved in the Luohan quan thread. it was a mistake. it was shown that Deyang's Luohan 18 hands is exactly the same as the other monks of his lineage (for example Shi Deyong), and also exactly the same as the Encyclopedia's Luohan 18 hands, the exact same movements, the exact same sequence. because Shaolin monks do their forms with different shen fa (body mechanics), it's usual for people to get confused if they don't check out the forms movement by movement. in most the cases, the forms are mostly exactly the same and there's no need to any standardization. this kind of confusion is usual to happen, and it happens a lot in this forum as well. when it comes to Shaolin quan, people ought to be more careful with their opinions on the styles.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-04-2014 at 02:44 AM.

  7. #7
    I think it was discussed how Shi Deyang's form that was released in both VCD and DVD formats is a revamped version of Luo Han Shi Ba Shou 1 Lu. I also learned from the discussions on the forum, that most people practice the 1st and 8th road only. I have a translation of the Shaolin Encyclopedia in Vietnamese, and the 8th road is the same exact form as the Huaquan 18 Shou. Can anyone corroborate this?

  8. #8
    The only Hua Quan 24 Shi that I have seen is the one from Flower Fist, not China Fist-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv1XUNQ6sI8

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by taichi4eva View Post
    I think it was discussed how Shi Deyang's form that was released in both VCD and DVD formats is a revamped version of Luo Han Shi Ba Shou 1 Lu.
    that was a mistake. and when it comes to traditional kung fu styles, such mistakes happen a lot. all versions were the same. there's also a video of another monk, Shi Deyong (not Deyang). the Encyclopedia's, Deyang's, and Deyong's all have the same sequence, the same movements. read the posts carefully.

    I have a translation of the Shaolin Encyclopedia in Vietnamese, and the 8th road is the same exact form as the Huaquan 18 Shou. Can anyone corroborate this?
    that Hua quan form is the 9th form. the 8th form is the one Shi Dejian and his fellow brothers do. the Encyclopedia is here: check it out, vol 2, page 32: https://www.scribd.com/collections/4133108

  10. #10
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    I can't watch Youtube right now (China),

    Never the less it may well not be related, I only noticed it because it is visibly not Shaolin so when I see people in DengFeng practicing it I think why and I group all the non Shaolin sets together.

    As Shemmati said, the HuaQuan one IS in the encyclopedia, as is babu lian huan quan, you will notice however they are drawn differently (old encylopedia). It is listed as part 9, I think they also show HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou as well.

    As to the first 8, they look like their related and I think they may be part of a big system but we have yet to discover a clan that practices all 8 or even several of these together so I remain uncertain. Part 1 is common. Either way it appears to be NanYuan material.


    @Shemmati,

    Your right, DeYongs is the same as DeYangs. Its a good set, but I have seen these traditionally referred to as XiaoSiHui. As to HuShanZiMen I don't know much about this one, I have seen it practiced here but I am very uncertain of it, it doesn't feel classic SongShan to me. Have you seen the one in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian? This is the same as the one I practice, I have seen its poem repeated in several places and I think it is the best candidate for a standard 18 Shou. It is not in the Encyclopedia.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  11. #11
    Shaolin 18 postures...may be a modern form but it looks like a sister form to Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzg4OD....4.2-1.1-1-2-1

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by taichi4eva View Post
    Shaolin 18 postures...may be a modern form but it looks like a sister form to Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzg4OD....4.2-1.1-1-2-1
    I think I recognise this form.... Its not practiced in DengFeng but it is shaolin, kind of. If its what I think it is then its not old its new, however it was designed to be useful sanshou techniques instead of to look cool.

    Either way it is not related to Babu or the other one. It looks similar because its construction is simple.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

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    A couple comments;

    - I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun... for what that's worth.

    - Xiaosihui in Shi Zhenxu's lineage (Deyang, Deyong, etc.) is the "Kanjia" set of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. It was only called Luohan Shiba Shou because it consisted of 18 postures, and to obscure its identity. It didn't used to be taught to students outside this small sect of Zhenxu's personal disciples, even when he was acting abbot and taught other material to the rest of the monks (he learned both Nanyuan and Xiyuan). Hence it's so rare nowadays. Never saw people do it until Deyang's video came out, but still not many know what it actually is. Maybe only 8 or so people have all of Zhenxu's system, which they call "Shaolin Zhenxu Quanxue" (combat science).

    If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it's part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I've never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu's sect does it the same way.

  14. #14
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    Hua Quan Training Forms

    Hi taichi4eva-

    As a student with training in the Hua Quan style (China Fist):

    1st I can say that you are right the China 24 Shi people are talking about in this thread is from the Flower-style, not the China (Glorious) style.

    As far as Hua Quan- this style (within the system) has 12 core forms which can be performed as killer solo forms or (most if not all) as a 2-person set. Beyond these 12 core forms are the longer roads, and also short and long weapons sets.

    There is a Chinese TV documentary you may be able to see on Youtube about Hua Quan- it shows a black and white picture of Cai Longyun's father in a distinct posture from Babu (lian hua) chuan. If you train outside the Wah (hua) style I guess it makes sense to say where the form comes from, the school I train just referrs to the form as 'Babu Chuan'.

    The 12 core forms of Hua Quan are developmental in nature- they start shorter such as sher bi shou and babu chuan, but get almost as lenghty as the roads at the other end of the spectrum- each form emphasizing different techniques and elements, etc.

    If giving a performance for example, Babu chuan and sher bi (shou) chuan are good to perform together, one could train those like one long form, although different techniques and postures the energy of these 2 forms work well together. There are other forms in the 12 core set that are just like this as well, that go good together, such as the 1st set and the 4th set from the 12 core forms I learned (which are identical in energy, with the 4th set being a longer form with more high/low stances, etc.) (for a modern example, like different levels of a video game). Some of the 12 core forms are also Hua style's Springing Legs as well, with alot of kicking skill involved.

    Anyway that is my 2cents. Have a good day!

  15. #15
    Thank you everyone for the great information!

    MarathonTmatt- So when were Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan constructed? Are they newer sets? Or are they as old as the other 12 core sets of Hua Quan? Any forms in Hua Quan similar to these two sets?

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