Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

[taichi4eva]

At LFJ- the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"

What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?

[MarathonTmatt]

Thank you everyone for the great information!

MarathonTmatt- So when were Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan constructed? Are they newer sets? Or are they as old as the other 12 core sets of Hua Quan? Any forms in Hua Quan similar to these two sets?

This style was largely practised in Shandong province. Cai Longyun's father, Cai Guigin trained under his grandfather in the style, and later after his grandfather passed, from another Hua master in Shantung, Ding Yushan. If you think about it this implies that Hua Quan was practised by different masters throughout the Shantung Province at that time (18th/19th centuries.) There were probably different variations of the art as well at this time. In fact it was said that Cai Guigin combined his grandfather's teachings of Hua Quan with Master Ding Yushan's teachings to "make the art complete again" implying he must have learned different material from both master's.

How old is Shi Ba Shou and (Hua style) Babu Quan. It probably existed in some form or another since Cai Guigin's time. Maybe before (in some form). Maybe Cai Longyun did modernize these forms, maybe it came from Cai Guigin or Ding Yushan I am not sure. I am not sure either when the Shaolin Temple adopted these forms into their training curriculum. I do know that the International Chin Woo Association trains at least Shi Ba Shou, and that the association was founded around (1915'ish?) which was when Cai Guigin was travelling through China, and spreading boxing techniques with other master's. It would be interesting to find out when the Chin Woo Assoc. absorbed that material into their curriculum (possibly influenced by Cai Guigin directly?) Cai Guigin also taught his sister's son in the Hua style, with the surname of Chen. Master Chen had two sons, one who stayed in China (during cultural revolution) and one who made his way to Taiwan (I hope I got that right) and eventually to the USA, but moved back to China eventually.

Also Cai Longyun is one of China's top Wushu masters and is a living legend. He also has a son who I think teaches. My teacher would know better than me, I think he has collaborated with him before in the past (at least were "in touch" w/ each other.)

Also, alot of the northern longfist styles are related. Sometimes when I see Cha Quan or Hong Quan sets I think "that might as well be a different Hua Quan form." Like I said, the 1st set and the 4th set of the 12 core forms of the Hua style have a similar energy unto themselves also and are good to train together. The 1st form is just as "short" and crisp as Babu and Sher Ba with the 4th form being a little longer- they have different energies though. The 5th form I learned is the 1st "springing legs" form (emphasizing leg skill), etc. Again, the forms are developmental in nature and focus on different aspects of training for the student's development, that is why people usually say stuff like "long fist has a bit of everything" and things like that.

Okay, cheer-ri-os!

[MarathonTmatt]

Oh, also to answer your question a bit further- I would say that most of the Hua forms have a "4-part" kick drill. This consists of hand techniques (I will reserve myself and not go into the detail) combined with a springing snap kick. Babu is the only form I can think of that I learned that does not have this signature move. Another signature move is the "Rising Sun" salute/ brush upwards.

For instance in this video (uploaded by LFJ who is on this thread) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

the performer does the springing snap kick @ 0:15 but w/o the signature hand technique ("4-part") I learned.

Now, it is a nice night outside so I am going to go outside and train!

[LFJ]

At LFJ- the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"

Yes, it's actually sometimes translated as "special" because it's usually the most "outstanding" techniques within a style used to "guard the household". Dictionaries have all three of these translations. For this reason the Xiaosihui was itself closely guarded and not even regular students would learn it until much later. Compared to the rest of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan, although it's short and simple, its techniques are quite brutal. Nowadays I see people use it as a basic stance training set or something, fooled by its simplicity. But it's actually still very rare.

What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?

That's a complicated question since there are many subsystems to consider. There are styles unique to each, but where they do share things the body mechanics can be quite different. RenDaHai might be able to give a more detailed impression since he has training experience in both Xiyuan and Nanyuan, whereas I primarily just train Nanyuan. I get the impression that Xiyuan and Nanyuan had the martial traditions, as not much is known to have come from the others.

As we mention it, there is a Xiyuan version of Xiaosihui, also called Xiantian Luohan Shiba Shou, as Shi Deyang calls it on his video. Xiantian means inborn; innate; natural, and I believe this is because while it's not actually part of a Luohanquan system, it's a Shaolin style (which can generically be called Luohanquan, Arhat Boxing) made of 18 postures, so the "Luohan Shiba Shou" is inborn, although this is to obscure its identity.

The Xiyuan version goes to the right instead of left with all mirrored movements, but its steps and movements are very compact, compared to the Nanyuan version. Personally, I train it going to the left, and then at the end, since it starts and ends with the same salute, I continue to do it on the mirrored side as a long balanced form.

The Xiyuan version is so different it's very difficult to tell it's the same stuff. You have to look closely. But it's changed so much it doesn't really match the Nanyuan Tongbeiquan that it's a part of, whereas the Nanyuan version is very close and obviously a part of the larger system. This is what I'm talking about below. Don't know when this version came about:

[SHemmati]

...Have you seen the one in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian? This is the same as the one I practice, I have seen its poem repeated in several places and I think it is the best candidate for a standard 18 Shou. It is not in the Encyclopedia.

yea. we talked about it in the Luohan quan thread. it's said to have been passed down by Li Gensheng, which as you know was a folk master. i still don't know anything about its origin. but has much in common with xiyuan small Tong Bi quan, and especially the 1st form of the strange 18-form Luohan system that i posted its first 10 forms into the Luohan thread. strange, that 1st form of that 18-form Luohan quan also was exactly of the kind of and somehow identical to xiyuan small Tong Bi quan. the origins go toward xiyuan and its Tong Bi quan, for sure.
it was just a conjecture, but i guessed this one is called Luohan 18 hands because its 18 techniques are exactly those that form that 1st form of that strange 18 Luohan quan. complicated.

A couple comments;

- I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun...

strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don't show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.

...Nanyuan Tongbeiquan

this is another case of the "different styles, same/similar names." Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan. Shaolin tong bi quan origin, as you know, comes from general Han Tong's Tong Bi quan of the Song dynasty (this Tong Bi quan, now, also as you know, part of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan though it's a small form, and Taizu Chang quan, and Da Hong quan, and Shaolin small Mei Hua quan, and probably Wu He quan, and some other styles of the early Song dynasty are all based on the methods that the generals of the early Song dynasty taught their armies. all these styles share much technical contents in common.) later, the monks mixed Han Tong's Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong's name? both these 'Tong's are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style. there we see almost no technical similarity between Shaolin Tong Bi quan, and Daoist Tong Bei quan. i think using the totally different name Tong Bei for Shaolin Tong Bi style is probably because of the similarity of the names. despite this much spread confusion, i'm yet to see any reliable source mentioning any logical relation between Shaolin Tong Bi quan and the Daoist Tong Bei quan.

If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it's part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I've never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu's sect does it the same way.

this is definitely a wrong impression. i previously talked about it in the Luohan thread, and i thought it was enough to show that the Encyclopedia version is the same. but seems it had not been enough. ok. i make that description pictorial and post it here tonight. maybe that helps.

...the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"

both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means 'guard/watch over the household,' another means 'special.' and i think there's more. about the 'guard the home' style, it's is said to have been created under the supervision of abbot FuJu (Song dynasty, 960s AD) or FuYu (Yuan dynasty, 1200s AD). about the 'special' style, i'm unsure if it refers to one specific style. many lineages pick up a form and call it 'special.'

[LFJ]

Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan.

You are mistaken.

[LFJ]

strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don't show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.

An entire section of the first road of Yinshougun is found in the middle of both Shaohuogun and Fengmogun and it shares the methodology of Fengmogun. It's also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.

later, the monks mixed Han Tong's Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong's name? both these 'Tong's are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is "Renshou Tongbiquan". It's a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren't actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.

both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means 'guard/watch over the household,' another means 'special.'

These are both translations of the same characters 看家, not different names. Kanjiaquan is a commonly used name, so naturally there are many things under this title. Each sect will have a "Kanjiaquan" which is their "special" style used to "guard the household". Literally it means to guard the household, but also means special or outstanding in reference to skill or ability. Usually when you find a form or system with this name, it also has another specific name. Kanjiaquan in that sense isn't the actual name of the system, but a title meaning this system or form is the special/best/secret techniques of the sect.

[bawang]

ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.

lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.

lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.

[SHemmati]

...It's also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.

in most cases the Shaolin styles have originally one or a couple of forms. but there's more additional form created and dedicated to the temple by other people. like small and big Hong quan, which have a number of such additional forms. not sure, but the story of these additional yin shou gun forms is most probably of this kind.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is "Renshou Tongbiquan". It's a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren't actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.

actually, this is the case with any small&big pairs in Shaolin quan. usually these small&big forms are of different eras, different systems and origins. what makes them the pair is not the history, origin, or system, but the 'technical' kind of similarity and mutual cooperation.

the long forms broken into 3 parts is a tradition, nothing recent. most people know 2 parts of the 3, or just 1, but all know the exact position of the 3 sections in the forms because they have learned it in their lineages. also, most the video instructors just perform exact 2 or all the 3 such parts of the forms absolutely without even mentioning anything of these breaks and this 3-part tradition. the only person clearly mentioning it, as i recall, is Shi Deyang. nobody else.

but about Tong Bi/Bei quan. in the names yes. we know a portion of monks call those forms Tong Bei. that may have some technical reason because of that kind of backward maneuver in that Nanyuan style (picture). though it's not similar to the famous Tong Bei quan backward maneuver (picture), it's a backward maneuver after all. i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning 'through-the-back'. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there's documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan. these styles are irrelevant, just there's similarity of the names. (and there's more to this: Shaolin xin yi quan, mi zong quan, and many other Shaolin styles are irrelevant to the more famous non-Shaolin styles with these same names. this needs a thread.)

These are both translations of the same characters 看家, not different names. Kanjiaquan...

right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.
the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there's one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin's lineage with the actual meaning of 'special.' a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their 'special' styles.
______

this thread is of an orphan topic itself. but it gets interesting with the various topics discussed.

[RenDaHai]

In SongShan TongBei has as many sets as HongQuan. Whichever style, whichever village there will be at least a TongBei or a HongQuan or both.

Its true the names TongBi and TongBei are often confounded. Shaolin has both and lots of both. Arm and back can both be pronounced in a similar manner, added with local accents it makes it next to impossible to confirm which is the original. But we like to draw a sharp difference in our clan. Forms from TongBei are obvious.

Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei. The nanyuan Tongbei quan is very closely related to XiaoTongbeiquan (known as DaLiuHeQuan now) contains the same major techniques but a different form, and as such is compatible.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.

To make things more confusing there is also a TongBi quan meaning 'Bronze arm' boxing. The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.

Its a maze to try to discover these names, but forms are easily connected when we look at the techniques they contain. This is harder to do these days because of the mixing of so many clans in the current syllabus, but usually when finding the best version we see the character of its techniques.

[LFJ]

i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning 'through-the-back'. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there's documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan.

I don't believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You're probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.

I know of Renshou Tongbiquan and a standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai's shifu mentioned, saying it is also completely separate from Tongbeiquan. Don't know if RenDaHai has gotten to it yet...? But the others are called Tongbeiquan, in Xiyuan and Nanyuan.

right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.

It doesn't work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It's one word, used in a name. We're just looking at it in three different languages.

the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there's one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin's lineage with the actual meaning of 'special.' a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their 'special' styles.

Each sect's Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu's sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You're seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It's one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of "special" skill because it's the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.

[LFJ]

the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians.

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. "Kanjiaquan" is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan...

[Firehawk4]

What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?

[RenDaHai]

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. "Kanjiaquan" is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan...

For example our KanJia Quan is YeXing Quan (nightwalker fist) because invaders will come in at night in complete darkness so one must have techniques for such an occurance (this is somewhat less important post electricity but still interesting).

In MoGou village their KanJia Quan is LaoHong Quan, it contains some of the best techniques and it is short enough and easy enough for a whole village to learn.

Luotuoyuan village has Taizu ChangQuan as their KanJia Quan.

Even individual Wushu families here will have their own KanJia Quan, so there are many. However often the KanJia Quan will have an alternative name. 13 Lou KanJia Quan has many alternative names and versions.

[sha0lin1]

What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?

Probably not since they claim a southern style of Shaolin called Hood Khar Pai which I have never heard of before.