Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

[SHemmati]

Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei.

add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it's the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai's so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.

there's a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it's much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you've seen is the same. to add to that, i've heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan's) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it's allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.

...The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.

haha! right. even i'm not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word 空(kong) to 宗(zong), 禅宗派(chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that's the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.
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I don't believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You're probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.

no, right, nobody said that. i just had a point in that to notify the very difference between the non-Shaolin Daoist Tong Bei quan and the Shaolin style, whatever called Tong Bi or Bei. yes, the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan everyone knows. so it's called Tong Bei quan! well. the Shaolin quan pu, which is from before the fire of 1928 and is said to have not been tampered with since then, calls it Tong Bi quan, it's said by many sources to be Han Tong's style. however, i add that i know several other old sources which call it Tong Bei quan. the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.
the names themselves are not so important, but when the name of two different styles is the same then that needs clarification or else, confusion occurs. this is the case we have with most the famous Shaolin styles, so i said i think this needs its own thread.

It doesn't work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It's one word, used in a name. We're just looking at it in three different languages.

Each sect's Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu's sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You're seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It's one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of "special" skill because it's the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.

literally, yes it's that. the Chinese tend to shorten the names. e.g., of Vajra in Shaolin kung fu we usually mean Vajrapani, Buddha's powerful attendants, and the Vajra, the diamond, is the Vajrapani(s)'s weapon. the incident is, the Vajrapani(s) and the diamond are both powerful; this makes the two words reasonably interchangeable. kan jia for 'guard the home' and 'special,' yea, right. it also the way you said is interchangeable.

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on...

since you mentioned Shi Dejun. he doesn't do the form completely, there he drops out some cool stunts in the forms and simplifies parts of the rest. there's somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there's his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi]

[SHemmati]

i had a pictorial description on the 1st form of Luohan 18 hands (aka xiao si hui). i post it in the following posts, when turning back to its topic.

[SHemmati]

ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.

lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.

lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.

do you know about any relation, historical and/or technical, between ba bu lian huan and the lian hua(n) itself?

[RenDaHai]

add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it's the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai's so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.


there's a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it's much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you've seen is the same. to add to that, i've heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan's) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it's allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.


haha! right. even i'm not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word 空(kong) to 宗(zong), 禅宗派(chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that's the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.
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The Standard DaTongbei is bei. Its the same style as the XiaoTongbei, they go together perfectly. Tongbei is shaolins most longfist style, though Shaolin often gets called longfist the vast majority is duanda and tieshenkao but Tongbei is long fist. This also goes together with the NanyuanDaTongbei that Deyang performs, looking closely you will see the overlap in techniques between NanyuanDatongbei and XiaoTongbei er lu (also known as Daliuhequan and perhaps erlutaizuchangquan but I would have to see the lyrics)

I am assuming Renshoutongbi (Bi) is related to RuanJiaChui but I can't confirm this, its more a hunch.

Thats a reasonable guess, ChanZongPai would work, however it is specifically ChanKONG, i.e 'Meditation on the void'.

[LFJ]

the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.

True, but we finally have things ironed out with our current naming. All those Da and Xiao forms by various names in Xiyuan are Tongbeiquan in RenDaHai's sect. In Nanyuan there is Tongbeiquan with the Xiaosihui being its Kanjiaquan, and Renshou Tongbiquan, as they are named in my sect. So that has all been put to bed. There is just one other standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai's shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is "full arm" techniques. Maybe that's their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven't heard if he's seen it or learned it yet...

there's somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there's his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi]

Cool. He called it Xinggongquan. I looked it up. It's said to have 10 sets and was previously just called Shaolinquan with no other name. But since Shaolin is too common and widespread it was given the name Xinggongquan. I definitely think it bears similarities to the so-called "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, which must be some sort or other of Tongbiquan. That's my impression.

[RenDaHai]

RenDaHai's shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is "full arm" techniques. Maybe that's their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven't heard if he's seen it or learned it yet...

Haven't learned or seen it, just a few moves. There are too many sets that take priority over this one.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Jiazi Quan was an ancient Muslim martial art from western China that also was the basis from which the Muslim Cha Quan and Hua Quan systems in Shandong were developed from. Mi Zhong Quan also has a similar Jiazi Quan training set. Jiazi Quan’was also known as “Dajia Quan” - Large Frame Boxing, as was called the oldest branch of Meihua Zhuang. All three of these now widespread in Shandong styles originally came
from Western China, suggesting that there may be a common source to the foundational material of the various Muslim
practiced Shandong martial art styles. Meihua Zhuang also shares much with Liuhe Men, another Chinese Muslim
practiced martial art.

Hua Quan 18 Louhan Hands - Luoyang Long Men Connection
(Famous Xin Yi Quan practitioner) Ma Xueli lived in Luoyang city, which was very close to the Shaolin temple. Luoyang is known for many martial
arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Longfeng’s time is called the “Long Men” (龍門) –
Dragon’s Gate or School from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the “Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang
Tong Bei Quan” system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after
coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around
1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan.
Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged
some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called “Long Men Quan”
(Dragon Gate Fist) that is also practiced with the same exact movements by the Cai family lineage of “Hua (華) Quan”
– Glorious Boxing style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the name “Luohan Shiba
Shou” – Luohan 18 Hands. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a
staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey,
Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others.

The opening five movements that correspond to these animals are very similar to the Five Elements movements
of Pi Quan, Zhuan Quan, Beng Quan, Pao Quan, and Heng Quan, which are foundational to Xinyi Quan / Xingyi
Quan. The first four postures correspond faithfully. Originally in ancient times there were only four elements used,
much later Heng (earth) was added. In Xing Yi, Heng (earth) is supposed to be all the other elements together as one,
so it is at the center of the four elements. This is true of the fifth and sixth postures, if done successively they indeed
correspond to the movements of Heng (earth) Quan as well. The rest of the postures correspond well to Dragon, Tiger,
Horse, Hawk, Swallow, and other animal movements seen in Xinyi and Xingyi. Being that this set, originally from Hua
Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Longfeng’s art reached Ma Xueli
of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important
attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any
possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.