Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

[taichi4eva]

I learned from this forum that the forms below, Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan (Eight Step Linking Fist), were brought back into Shao Lin from the Hua Quan system. Supposedly, Cai Long Yun (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazi...hp?article=625) may have had a hand in creating/ re-choreographing these sets. I wanted to ask if anybody knows if there was ever a 3rd set that was similarly constructed. I've read a couple of articles citing that Luo Han Shi Ba Shou, Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan, and the Wind Demon Staff (Feng Mo Gun?) were part of the original Luo Han Quan. The Luo Han Shi Ba Shou sets now coming out of Shao Lin seemed to be a mixed bag, and there has never been a standard.

[RenDaHai]

Hi there,

I know the forms your talking about. Its true they are not really Song mountain kung fu, they are popular all over China.

There ARE many authentic song mountain Luohan 18 shou forms, which is why it has always confused me that so many schools use the hua quan one. One Luohan 18 shou in particular stands apart which I would say should be the standard but there are no videos of it. In fact when you have over 700 forms and are the most famous Kung fu style it is very strange to take forms from other clans.

I am not certain if there is a third set like these, but I do know that both these sets have a DuiLian, a 2 man version. After this there is a HuaQuan 24shi (i think) that some people practice, it might be related. Some schools do these sets together with the standard 6 international wushu routines of chang quan.

FengMo gun is a true Shaolin staff style. Shaolins famous staff was called the YeCha Gun, but this is the name of a buddhist demon and only really makes sense inside a temple. In the Song mountain villages FengMo gun and MeiQi and YinShou gun are more common. Though they are not the name of a particular set but the name of styles of Staff fighting and each name has many sets.

Really any buddhist fist can be called Luohan Quan, but certainly the forms you mention are not part of original Shaolin luohan quan (if there is such a thing). Though FengMo gun MAY well be truly old Shaolin material, there are many forms with this name, no doubt some are old some are not, the sequence here is not as important as the techniques contained.

[SHemmati]

having the same names! another problem. yes, as told, that Luohan 18 hands and the 8-tep Lian Huan quan are both from Hua quan style. maybe once they'd had some roots in Shaolin, but in their current form they seem much different from Shaolin quan.

however, having the same names makes people mistakenly mention this Luohan 18 hands form as the Shaolin 18 hands. there are articles claiming Shaolin Luohan 18 hands as having 6 different methods of fist, 1 method of elbow, 2 methods of palm, 4 methods of leg, and 5 methods of joint locking. and that of these 18 methods, a routine of 24 movements for attack and defense has been developed and so and so. this is all about this Luohan 18 hands, and irrelevant to the Shaolin Luohan 18 hands forms. (more detail on Luohan 18 hands and Luohan quan here: Wikipedia: Luohan (martial arts)#Luohan's 18 hands)


Shaolin sets are not at all mixed bags. that's because of the confusing phenomenon of "different styles with the same names," that people mix up. not only Luohan 18 hands, but for most the other well-known extant Shaolin sets (like Hong quan, Pao quan, Tong Bi quan, Luohan quan, Chang quan, Xin Yi quan, Mi Zong quan, etc, etc,...) there is at least one totally different non-Shaolin style with exactly the same name. people and the scholars may get confused and mix these styles up with one another. you see many people, assumedly, describing a Shaolin style, while when you go along you see they've been describing a totally different non-Shaolin style with the same name all along; like the above-mentioned case of Shaolin Luohan 18 hands.
seems vital in this Shaolin forum to have a big thread about such confusions.

[taichi4eva]

I think the reason why many schools gravitate to the Hua Quan version is because it is nicely constructed- not too long, 18 skills, can be practiced individually and then in a 2 man set. Shi De Yang's DVD of Luo Han 18 Hands seems to be a hodgepodge, according to Sal...so I wonder which is the standard. Any links to Hua Quan 24 Shi?

[RenDaHai]

The one Deyang does is a good form, but there are many versions and every version of it has similar techniques but an often different sequence, so Sal is right, its been knocked about a bit. But its good material. However it has another name, XiaoSiHui, '4 rounds'. Its GeJue (Poem) mentions the 18 hands but I don't think this form is it. The one I am referring to is very different and beautiful, however I don't know if its the 'original' if there is one, its just particularly nice and has clearly 18 moves.

I don't know much about 24 shi, just that I've seen people doing it, its an easy(ish) form. I think your probably right about these forms, They are clear and easy to teach and understand, especially they are easy to teach big group of students together. Still I would rather Shaolin focused on its own material.

[SHemmati]

reasonable. in Hua quan, action (attack and defense applications) is clear. so, of course these Hua quan duets (2-man forms) are easy to learn, simple to understand and also effective to use in combats. they are a best choice for the folks to learn.
compare these with Shaolin quan, in which the purposes are mostly esoterically hidden in the forms, and takes years to be learned.

this Hua quan Luohan 18 hands has 18 basic methods (6 methods of fists, 1 method of elbow, ...), but the solo form has 24 postures (shi), then another form, which has many different methods, is coupled with this to form the duet. maybe the 24 posture Hua quan you talk about is this 24-posture solo form?

** the problem with Shaolin Luohan 18 hands form was long ago solved in the Luohan quan thread. it was a mistake. it was shown that Deyang's Luohan 18 hands is exactly the same as the other monks of his lineage (for example Shi Deyong), and also exactly the same as the Encyclopedia's Luohan 18 hands, the exact same movements, the exact same sequence. because Shaolin monks do their forms with different shen fa (body mechanics), it's usual for people to get confused if they don't check out the forms movement by movement. in most the cases, the forms are mostly exactly the same and there's no need to any standardization. this kind of confusion is usual to happen, and it happens a lot in this forum as well. when it comes to Shaolin quan, people ought to be more careful with their opinions on the styles.

[taichi4eva]

I think it was discussed how Shi Deyang's form that was released in both VCD and DVD formats is a revamped version of Luo Han Shi Ba Shou 1 Lu. I also learned from the discussions on the forum, that most people practice the 1st and 8th road only. I have a translation of the Shaolin Encyclopedia in Vietnamese, and the 8th road is the same exact form as the Huaquan 18 Shou. Can anyone corroborate this?