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Thread: Circles vs Straight Lines

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post
    The problem is that discussions are a huge hindrance to a persons development in Wing Chun. There is so much misinformation that is spread by people who hold themselves out as authorities. Additionally, the ones with the loudest voices are seldom the best practitioners...
    This is so true. People even ask me for advice on forums. Ha ha ha ha ha....

    Oh and with reference to those loud voices... I am reminded of a Chinese proverb my old sifu once used: The bottle that is only half full makes the most noise.

    OK I didn't get it. So he added "When shaken. --empty bottles and full bottles are silent. Now you understand?"
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

    'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

    Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

    It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target. For example, say my hand is above my head, the straight line punch is a chop, if I were to do a straight punch from this position I would have to first withdraw my hand along a curved path to strike straight. If I have blocked slightly to the outside, then returning with a hook to the jaw would be the straight line punch, since it is the straightest path to the target and back to my centre.

    Very often doing an actual straight punch violates the straight line rule. Your hands cannot move well in straight lines because of the articulation of the joints, small circles generate power.

    This is for styles like Shaolin in central China, but I think it is not out of place in WC.
    very interesting, thought provoking reply!
    sincerly, eddie

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post

    Find decent martial artists from opposing systems who also seek improvement.
    Incorporate safe sparring practices working within a frame of Deliberate Practice.
    Test out Wing Chun movements, but don't be afraid to abandon them in favour of what feels right in the circumstances.
    Suki
    I'd have to agree with you there too.....Sparring is essential.
    I don't like doing it, but without it, you may as well be practicing morris dancing.
    Safe working practices - Yep. Sparring isn't Celebrity Deathmatch.
    Test it out - I have to agree here too.
    It's a bit hokey to say so, but I think Bruce Lee had the right idea:
    Less form, more practical.
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillC. View Post
    I'd have to agree with you there too.....Sparring is essential.
    I don't like doing it, but without it, you may as well be practicing morris dancing.
    Safe working practices - Yep. Sparring isn't Celebrity Deathmatch.
    Test it out - I have to agree here too.
    It's a bit hokey to say so, but I think Bruce Lee had the right idea:
    Less form, more practical.
    Karl Marx (1819-83) said "Practice without Theory is blind, Theory without practice is sterile.
    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play." Immanuel Kant

    I say "practice without theory is wasted effort". I believe both are equally as important, otherwise would not need a knowledgeable teacher.

  5. #20
    I'm not sure how Marx or Kant are any relevance here. This is neither a discussion on the Communist Manifesto nor Metaphysical logic. If you are to cite philosophers, at least Popper and Kuhn applied would provide ideas on a scientific approach to relevant data.

    In any event, no one disputes practice (leading to experience) led by sound theories and principles of fighting. But most instructors are so consumed with the angle, use and function of a, for example, tan sau, that they forget that they are being punched in the head. Losing sight of the forest...

    What I proposed earlier, was a simplified model of converting theory to practical application using resistance within a controlled fighting environment. You then allow that process to be a guide for what is functional and what is useless. Let the fighting process be a teacher!

    Random thoughts...


    Suki
    "From a psychological point of view, demons represent the universal equivalents of the dark, cruel, animal depths of the mind. When we as martial artists are preparing ourselves to overcome our fear of domination at the hands of an opponent, we must go deep within our inner being and allow the darkest parts of ourselves to be revealed. In order to battle the monsters in an abyss, we must sometimes unleash the demon within" http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/

  6. #21
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    One can always know people by how they respond to stimuli, real or imagined!
    The politics of Marx is of little or no importance but what he says is indicative of how people can be tricked into stuff by their own choice(s). Is finger pointing to the moon about direction, finger, moon or space (vastness and unfathomable emptiness). Only one's hairdresser knows for sure, I think therefore I am not or am I ???

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post
    ...most instructors are so consumed with the angle, use and function of a, for example, tan sau, that they forget that they are being punched in the head. Losing sight of the forest...
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post
    What I proposed earlier, was a simplified model of converting theory to practical application using resistance within a controlled fighting environment. You then allow that process to be a guide for what is functional and what is useless. Let the fighting process be a teacher!
    Agreed...Most WC I've seen in class usually amounts to mental masturbation with a bit of PT thrown in, when all is said & done, WC is about fighting.
    Not WC vs WC; it's about WC vs your opponent who is using non-WC techniques and isn't being compliant in his actions with regards to WC theory.
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Karl Marx (1819-83) said "Practice without Theory is blind, Theory without practice is sterile.
    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play." Immanuel Kant

    I say "practice without theory is wasted effort". I believe both are equally as important, otherwise would not need a knowledgeable teacher.


    Albert Einstein 1879-1955 "The only source of knowledge is experience."

    I was going to quote from Kant, but he's a bit too metaphysical for me.

    Theory does have it's place. But it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of WC And a theory is just that. A Theory.

    "If facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." Einstein
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  9. #24
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    Great. So a discussion about shapes in WC morphs into an argument about whose quotes are the cleverest.

    "99% of all internet quotes are made up on the spot" - Genghis Khan
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Great. So a discussion about shapes in WC morphs into an argument about whose quotes are the cleverest.

    "99% of all internet quotes are made up on the spot" - Genghis Khan
    So your contribution to this thread is both argumentative and includes a clever quote,
    complaining about disparaging arguments and clever quotes that appear in the thread?

    I'm somewhat willing to hang my head in shame - As I do take your point:
    When I joined this forum, I promised myself not get into the silly and puerile tit for tat exchanges that actually discouraged me form joining it earlier.

    So having said that, I'd like to have an intelligent post from you now, on the subject this thread covers.
    I have found the posts that other people have left here to be both enjoyable to read, and helpful to my on approach to and perception of WC.

    Many Thanks,
    BillC.
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  11. #26
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    So your contribution to this thread is both argumentative and includes a clever quote, complaining about disparaging arguments and clever quotes that appear in the thread?
    Argumentative... how? I'm glad you found Genghis' quote clever. For maximum impact, I suggest you respond in less than a week, rather than wait nearly an entire month.

    So having said that, I'd like to have an intelligent post from you now, on the subject this thread covers.
    You must learn to live with disappointment, grasshopper.

    As for intelligent posts, I think I've had my moments, should you wish to peruse my back catalog.

    I'm somewhat willing to hang my head in shame
    I'm not.

    The position for my forum conscience is taken. But thanks for applying. Don't call us, we'll call you.
    Last edited by anerlich; 12-18-2014 at 08:56 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Argumentative... how? I'm glad you found Genghis' quote clever. For maximum impact, I suggest you respond in less than a week, rather than wait nearly an entire month.



    You must learn to live with disappointment, grasshopper.

    As for intelligent posts, I think I've had my moments, should you wish to peruse my back catalog.



    I'm not.

    The position for my forum conscience is taken. But thanks for applying. Don't call us, we'll call you.
    Your points are taken, notes to self made.
    And yes. I did find your Genghis quote amusing.
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillC. View Post
    Your points are taken, notes to self made.
    And yes. I did find your Genghis quote amusing.
    BillC, you are a gentleman. More so certainly than I.

    To try to deliver on your request:

    One issue with discussing martial arts in terms of straight lines and circles is that most of what goes on is done in three dimensions.

    Or, as the core polemicist of the alleged nascent Western Wing Chun revolution would have it, we have to consider "six directional force vectors" (was it dimensional or directional? For some reason I wasn't paying close attention).

    True (with some license) the basic punch has the fist moving in a single dimension, and strikes with the elbows, or roundhouse kicks, involve the striking point/surface moving in a circular motion.

    Much has been made of spiralling energy, for example the bon sao spiralling forward and out.

    Another example is "screwing" one's feet into the floor to keep one's structure tight, though this is more the use of effective imagery rather than actual movement. Of course, one requires the ability to turn this off and on quickly, to make use of both stability and the ability to move, lest one get caught "stuck" to the ground.

    Since we all seem to love quotes here, I have an applicable one from Kenny Rogers:

    You got to know when to hold 'em
    Know when to fold 'em
    Know when to walk away
    Know when to run

    This applies to Wing Chun and fighting on several levels. Arguably it deserves a place in the list of kuen kuit, IMO ... but I digress.

    Even "spiralling energy" isn't the best term IMO. "Helical energy" might be better, as it involves three dimensions. As you all know, helix is a three dimensional curve that lies on a cylinder or cone. Dictionaries vary on the precise definition of spiral and helix, with some overlap, especially if one is trying not to be labelled as too much of a pedant.

    Some compound techniques involve the use of a combination of helical energy and straight lines, e.g. lop/larp dar. The larp sao takes the attacking strike off line by enveloping it in a helix (more or less), while the other fist goes straight to the target. This of course ignores any body movement, another issue of its own.

    Other stylists can use such concepts against you. For example, a poor pak sao pushing downward too much on a boxer's jab will allow him to step in ,circle (helix!) his elbow underneath and hit you on the button with the lead hook off that jab.

    If unfortunate enough to be caught by a jiu jitsu guy in a paintbrush armlock, you will be able to see how his moving your hand in a straight line can result in circular torque to your shoulder, with pain and damage as potential outcomes. Tap twice using straight lines for the fastest possible release would be my suggestion.

    Some Choy Li Fut punches were, according to legend, specifically designed to follow a helical path around the Wing Chun guard and hit the target.

    Exploring another poor and inappropriate analogy to Wing Chun, we all remember how the aforementioned core polemicist of the alleged nascent Western Wing Chun revolution (from here on in referred to as the CPANWWCR for brevity, should I need it) waxed lyrical about Wing Chun. Snake/Crane, Emei, and other DNA ... the molecule of which is, of course, shaped like a double helix! Wow! Correlation, causation, or totally unrelated?

    "Spiral out, keep going" - TOOL

    Another quote.

    Deep enough for you? No matter, as Miyamoto Mushashi said, "The Way is in training, not posting on internet forums".

    Best wishes to all for 2015.
    Last edited by anerlich; 12-21-2014 at 05:32 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  14. #29
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    You are the gentleman sir; I don't know when to keep my mouth shut / fingers off the keys at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    You got to know when to hold 'em
    Know when to fold 'em
    Know when to walk away
    Know when to run

    This applies to Wing Chun and fighting on several levels........
    That's so mind bogglingly appropriate, I'm stuck for words.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    As Miyamoto Mushashi said, "The Way is in training, not posting on internet forums".
    A wise man, that one. Never a truer word spoken!

    It sounds naive but I've only recently begun to realise that each technique is made in three dimensions.
    Your body moves through (say three basic) dimensions but you are blind to it - it's too everyday - you take it for granted.
    In trying to analyze the technique, I tended to isolate out certain portions or planes of movement.
    You can't isolate one from the others, your body doesn't work that way.
    And then couldn't go home and practice it properly, not realizing we operate naturally moment to moment in three planes.
    Not only moving in three planes - I should say spiralling / circling through or in three planes.

    Your post highlighted those points just nicely.

    My best wishes to you and yours for 2015
    No one said it was going to be F******g easy.
    Unless you Puke, Faint or Die, Keep Going.
    No chatting. Just STFU & get on with it.

  15. #30
    Great post(s) Andrew.

    I assumed the debate was lines vs. curved motions, but I like the idea of spirals or helix structures underlying the structures. Lots of parallels in various disciplines - kundalini energy work: idea of coiled serpent at base of spine, or further developments within the field of fascia research and how (quite literally) the layers run through our body in helix formations. The idea of fascia stretching ties neatly into the internal exercises of various Gung Fu styles involving relaxation (dissolving muscular tension) and carrying out spiralling motions like silk reeling.

    Yield to Reality's spiral.
    We owe it our existence Where did Reality come from?
    – Tao Te Ching translation by David K. Reynolds 7

    Suki
    "From a psychological point of view, demons represent the universal equivalents of the dark, cruel, animal depths of the mind. When we as martial artists are preparing ourselves to overcome our fear of domination at the hands of an opponent, we must go deep within our inner being and allow the darkest parts of ourselves to be revealed. In order to battle the monsters in an abyss, we must sometimes unleash the demon within" http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/

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