Circles vs Straight Lines

[BillC.]

Hi, Guys.

Wing Chun makes use of straight line punches (Walk the Line Not the Bow,etc.) a priority, seemingly to the exclusion of all others.
I know that the forms include other striking movements, but I get the feeling that these take a back seat in terms of useful application.

Personally, I think a mania for straight line punching to be a drawback, as it's not the strongest punch available in the WC arsenal.
Straight lines are not the be-all and end-all of Wing Chun.....

Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

What do you think?

[kung fu fighter]

Hi, Guys.

Wing Chun makes use of straight line punches (Walk the Line Not the Bow,etc.) a priority, seemingly to the exclusion of all others.
I know that the forms include other striking movements, but I get the feeling that these take a back seat in terms of useful application.

"Walk the Line Not the Bow" has many layers of meaning depending on your level, which i am not going to get into.

In actual application Wing chun uses an equal amount of of circles and angular lines, never "straight lines". Straight lines are just for beginners since it's much simpler for them to grasp, or to practice line drills in a group class setting.

Personally, I think a mania for straight line punching to be a drawback, as it's not the strongest punch available in the WC arsenal.
Straight lines are not the be-all and end-all of Wing Chun.....

The higher level forms of wck includes uppercuts, shovel hooks, downward back fist strikes, hammer fist strikes to the groin, horizontal back fists with waist torque. there are also angular phenix eye and ginger fist strikes, chops and finger pokes, as well as 8 different basic angles for kicking. in addition there are 8 different angles for elbow strikes, 5 different angles for shoulder strikes, 5 different angles for hip strikes, 5 different angles for knee strikes. there are even 8 angles for head butts. These are just off the top of my head, there are probably more.

Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

Correct! Even when doing the basic straight punch, the 7 joints of the body all torque to generate the force.

[RenDaHai]

There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target. For example, say my hand is above my head, the straight line punch is a chop, if I were to do a straight punch from this position I would have to first withdraw my hand along a curved path to strike straight. If I have blocked slightly to the outside, then returning with a hook to the jaw would be the straight line punch, since it is the straightest path to the target and back to my centre.

Very often doing an actual straight punch violates the straight line rule. Your hands cannot move well in straight lines because of the articulation of the joints, small circles generate power.

This is for styles like Shaolin in central China, but I think it is not out of place in WC.

[LFJ]

Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

That's why SNT isn't for application, and we have body methods in CK for developing knockout power without having to take circular punching paths.

My VT doesn't have all the "higher level" techniques kung fu fighter's does though...

[BillC.]

Correct! Even when doing the basic straight punch, the 7 joints of the body all torque to generate the force.

The 7 joints being used to provide torque: Ankle, Knee, Hip, Spine, Shoulder, Elbow, Wrist?
Many thanks for your reply. Liked it.

[BillC.]

There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target.

That's such an interesting reply.
And yes, I can see that what you say is true:
Simultaneous combinations of torquing circular movements.
Resulting in the fist describing a straight line as it travels.
But the motions involved in producing the punch in the rest of the body are anything but straight!

[Grumblegeezer]

That's such an interesting reply.
And yes, I can see that what you say is true:
Simultaneous combinations of torquing circular movements.
Resulting in the fist describing a straight line as it travels.
But the motions involved in producing the punch in the rest of the body are anything but straight!

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_IbemaFQo

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvJfPOAsw68

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRwBsCgFCA

Some other random observations: I'm told that due to the curvature of space-time, Straight lines do not exist.

Finally, I walk the bow-string. This guy walked the line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHF9itPLUo4

[BillC.]

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_IbemaFQo

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvJfPOAsw68

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRwBsCgFCA

OMG! You all see that too in your own WC? Yes machinery! When practicing, I see flywheels turning.
Circular into angular motion, angular into linear motion - Flywheel to camshaft, camshaft to pitman screw, etc.
When trying to describe what I meant to another chunner,
I tried using exactly that kind of 'mechanical' analogy:
Pistons, camshafts & rockers, Steam train wheels & Power press action.
Also, the turnstile - good one! angled / offset from the vertical circular motion.
All I got back was blank looks, and a "'NO! that's not Wing Chun."

[BillC.]

....without having to take circular punching paths.(

But it would be correct to say that some WC punches do exactly that - take circular paths?
If you couldn't penetrate your opponents inside area (too well guarded) then you could strike in this way:
From Man Sao or Wu Sao, circling around the inside through outside, impacting (side of opponents head)
then cutting back in a straight line to Man Sao / Wu Sao?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Practice against a reasonably skilled Chi Sao player, spar and do clinch work and it becomes self evident whether Wing Chun is linear, circular, or a myriad of all types of motions.

Suki

[LFJ]

But it would be correct to say that some WC punches do exactly that - take circular paths?

Maybe in other systems. I may use the core for torque and turn to face my target as I punch as they attempt to evade, which can create knockout power, but as RenDaHai described, my fist, from whatever position will travel the most direct line to the target. Those actions from the forms that people think are uppercuts or hook punches, in my system, are actually just cutting inward from the outside, using the elbow to sweep the line as the fist travels directly to the target from wherever it is.

If you couldn't penetrate your opponents inside area (too well guarded) then you could strike in this way:
From Man Sao or Wu Sao, circling around the inside through outside, impacting (side of opponents head)
then cutting back in a straight line to Man Sao / Wu Sao?

I wouldn't fight straight up the middle anyway, so I wouldn't need to give up the most direct striking path. Unlike other WC systems, man and wu don't have to occupy the center to dominate it. Rather, the elbow is used to clear the line as the fist travels straight to the target, as I just described. As long as you have body methods and footwork from CK, you can create knockout power without resorting to circular striking paths. Some don't, because they focus too much on application ideas. So to make up for it, they take circular striking paths to generate power, which is not how my VT functions, at least.

[BillC.]

.....it becomes self evident whether Wing Chun is linear, circular, or a myriad of all types of motions.

Suki

I'd have to agree with you.
Even between two differing lineages, practice & techniques were linear, almost maniacally so.
Coming back to WC now, what's being demonstrated & practiced is markedly different.
So much so that it's taken me quite some time to come to terms with it.
As you said: 'A myriad of all types of motions'.

[Wu Wei Wu]

The irony is that the Wing Chun fraternity is a group of non-fighters, led by an ancestry of theoretians. The debate centers around theory and how it can be practically applied in a live, dynamic environment. Yet, the efficient method would be to learn movements and expose the practitioner to a challenging environment with a degree of controlled variables, but one containing enough resistance for the student to learn what works. Allow it to be self evident rather than entrapment in notions of energies, Kuen kuit and forms.

Wing Chun is merely a vehicle to understand and engage in fighting IMO.

Suki

[BillC.]

The irony is that the Wing Chun fraternity is a group of non-fighters, led by an ancestry of theoretians..... Suki

I had to laugh.......'live' & 'dynamic' are two words that don't sit well with WC at all.
It's one thing to be theoretical, quite another to try to apply your WC in a fight.
I feel that in a 'real' fight, you'd never see any 'traditional' WC shapes, movements or techniques as you would when practicing them.
You could apply them - but it wouldn't look like a kung fu film fight, chi sao, etc.
Wing Chun in a fight doesn't look like two WC guys doing chi sao.

Fights are chaotic, random events containing chaotic, random moments.
You have to try to make sense of that with your WC.

Off topic, it's the same with the 50/50 thing.
Your balance & center of gravity are controlled dynamically.
You are never 50/50 static. you move moment to moment from 90/10 to 60/40 to 50/50 and back again in a continuous flowing manner.
You never stay on one point of the foot, but sometimes more heel, sometimes more sole, sometimes more on the ball.
The guy who's trying to teach me says that WC is all ifs, buts & maybes. I think that is so true.
You adjust according to circumstance, moment to moment.

[Wu Wei Wu]

*i misspelled theoreticians.

The problem is that discussions are a huge hindrance to a persons development in Wing Chun. There is so much misinformation that is spread by people who hold themselves out as authorities. Additionally, the ones with the loudest voices are seldom the best practitioners.

I say this will full sincerity, remembering with dismay how my genuine curiosity as a newbie meant I put too much reliance in forums like this and the Wing Chun mailing list. I have discovered more about Wing Chun in a single hour of sparring against a skilled fighter than I have in two decades of navigating the Wing Chun landscape of monotonous chatter.

If you want to become functional:

Find decent martial artists from opposing systems who also seek improvement.
Incorporate safe sparring practices working within a frame of Deliberate Practice.
Test out Wing Chun movements, but don't be afraid to abandon them in favour of what feels right in the circumstances.

Random thoughts...


Suki