Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: A Battle of Wisdom

  1. #1

    A Battle of Wisdom

    Hi Guys,

    A lot of people think that martial arts are all about using the body / physicality etc., but my teacher told me that actually using the mind and spirit are the higher levels of martial arts. With this in mind, who would win in a fight of wisdom between the following in your opinion?

    Lao Tsu

    Buddha

    Confucius

    Plato (because wisdom exists in the West too)

    Keith Jardine (included because I want someone to represent the modern way)

    -

    I’d really appreciate your thoughts! Thanks a lot,

    The Champion

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,645
    What about Patton. Patton could kick Plato's ass.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 11-28-2014 at 09:22 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NorthEast Region, N. America
    Posts
    467

    what do you mean "the west"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mega_Champion View Post
    Hi Guys,

    A lot of people think that martial arts are all about using the body / physicality etc., but my teacher told me that actually using the mind and spirit are the higher levels of martial arts. With this in mind, who would win in a fight of wisdom between the following in your opinion?

    Lao Tsu

    Buddha

    Confucius

    Plato (because wisdom exists in the West too)

    Keith Jardine (included because I want someone to represent the modern way)

    -

    I’d really appreciate your thoughts! Thanks a lot,

    The Champion
    I am confused by your comment that wisdom exists in the west too, and you cite Plato, a Greek philosopher. I am fairly aware of some of Plato's works and philosophies, and I like the jist of it. However, what do you mean by the west? This gets very confusing, especially from an American Indian perspective. For instance, if by the West you mean the New World, then you are actually referring to the American continent, the America's, which up until a few hundred years ago was it's own civilization(s) and culture(s)- Inuit, Algonquin, Iroquois, Athabascan, Cherokee, Taino, Aztec, Mayan, Incan, etc. etc. There are wisdom traditions in the west too, and many leaders such as Red Cloud (Lakota), Waukon Decorah (Ho-Chunk Winnebago), or Metacomet (Wampanoag) you could use as an example of a wise leader.

    I don't understand why this fact is always over-looked. In fact, the only culture and way of life that truely belongs to the land known as the America's (the true west) is the indigenous ways of life that have been either eradicated or disrupted or supressed. I would argue that the mainstream modern society is confused like a little brat that doesn't know any better and that grown-up adult people, when you think about it, for the most part, act like foolish "adult" children.

    If by westerner you mean the western part of the African/Asian/European continent, than ok. I know that the traditions of the average American are influenced and come from Greek/ Roman and Christian (or one of the 3 Abrahamic traditions- Judaism, Islam and Christianity) thought, education and law but I find it disturbing how Native American history, from the perspective of non-native people is rarely acknowledged in any way, even in terms of how First Nations laws, customs, language, land use, conflicts etc. from the invasion to the modern day has impacted and shaped American society greatly, not to mention the still older (pre-contact) implications of society (even in North America, on par with any of the great civilizations of the old world), land use, trade distribution, etc.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Columbia, MO
    Posts
    809
    Feeling honored to have posted in a MegaFist thread.
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  5. #5
    MarathonTmatt

    Way to turn a post on philosophy into modern, mindless political jibberish!

    No one would win in a battle of philosophies, because philosophies are founded upon un-provable premises. This was well demonstrated by Socrates over 2,500 years ago.

    This is also why political philosophies and religious perspectives rarely agree. They can only agree when the foundational premises are similar enough to allow for similar conclusions.

    The error is in trying to convince someone with different premises than yours that your conclusion is true and valid when they cannot accept the premises you start from. They will rarely understand or accept your conclusions unless they have matured to the point of understanding that even their own premises are indemonstrable.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NorthEast Region, N. America
    Posts
    467

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    MarathonTmatt

    Way to turn a post on philosophy into modern, mindless political jibberish!

    No one would win in a battle of philosophies, because philosophies are founded upon un-provable premises. This was well demonstrated by Socrates over 2,500 years ago.

    This is also why political philosophies and religious perspectives rarely agree. They can only agree when the foundational premises are similar enough to allow for similar conclusions.

    The error is in trying to convince someone with different premises than yours that your conclusion is true and valid when they cannot accept the premises you start from. They will rarely understand or accept your conclusions unless they have matured to the point of understanding that even their own premises are indemonstrable.
    Yes sir,

    You have very good points about Socrates and premises, and how people reach their conclusions. Spot on.

    I guess I did sort of rant/ get off topic... but there is a point to be made, there. The western hemisphere has always been different from how people perceive it today, as they know it. Much to be learned/ discussed/ understood by people.

    So, who should represent the western hemisphere in this "battle of wisdom" because Plato ain't from the West, that is my point.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    So, who should represent the western hemisphere in this "battle of wisdom" because Plato ain't from the West, that is my point.
    Well, he is.

    I mean, America is NOT the west, thats a very modern idea. America is the new world, it is not connected to the old world by land. Europe, Asia and Africa ARE all connected. When talking about ancient philosophy it is well accepted and indeed sensible to divide 'Eastern' and 'Western' philosophy.

    If you take Turkey, Egypt and Israel as the centre of the Ancient world then anything to the north west is 'The West' and Occident, Europe and anything to the south east is 'The East', Asia, the Orient. To the direct south we have Ethiopia and then impassable heat, to the direct north we have Scythia and impassable cold and barbarians. As far as the rest of the world is concerned America does not exist at this point in time.

    Nowadays 'The West' means first world democratic culture, because this is an extension of the culture of western Europe, i.e Britain, Western Europe, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand (certainly not west yet called the west). So America is referred to as 'The West' NOT because it is to the west of Europe, it is also to the East of Japan, but because it is the now dominant extension of European democratic culture.

    Western philosophy IS Plato and then many later people. Though he influenced near eastern and middle eastern philosophy also they had many other influences, where as in the West he is by far and away the most important figure. Maths, Science, Philosophy, Politics, Law, Theology--- all are massively indebted to Plato.

    Before Plato we have Pythagoras. He was contempory with LaoTzu and the Buddha. Reading Plato's Timaeus (supposedly Pythagorean doctrine) we can see startling similarities with LaoTzu and Buddhism even. So much so that it seems to point to a more ancient common philosophy. So I think between these there would be much agreement and no battle.


    However if they were to be judged..... We should have to award Plato as the winner. Looking at the worlds most successful cultures it is clear, in our time, Plato's influence has been more beneficial than that of LaoTzu or Buddha.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 12-02-2014 at 03:38 AM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  8. #8
    All roads lead to Rome.

    It does not matter which path/route/vehicle you take, you should arrive at the same destination.

    If it is a truth, it will be all encompassing or universal.

    Lao Zi may talk about the way of the nature. We follow the way or go with the flow.

    Buddha may talk about meditation and no distraction. You may seek enlightenment or see light/true nature at the end.

    Kong Fu Zi may talk about Li (harmony in a polite social order) and knowing life first. If we do not know about life, no need to learn about after death.

    It does not matter the path you take.

    We are striving to reach the truth about life and everything.

    Ten thousand methods will all come to the same source.

    ---


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post

    So, who should represent the western hemisphere in this "battle of wisdom" because Plato ain't from the West, that is my point.
    This is not true. Plato is a representative of Western Philosophy.

    If we want to be accurate, west is relative to where you start from. From Asia, America is east and Europe is West. In educated/academic conversation, however, it is commonly understood that Europe is considered the home of Western philosophy, India and China the home of Eastern philosophy.

    West is understood to include Greece, East begins in Asia Minor, that is the eastern side of the Bosphorus. This has been the case for 3,000 years or so.

    So your previous comment is a bit nit-picky and argumentative within the context of the original post. It is more a political issue and not pertinent to the original post.

    That is not to say it is not a topic worth discussing, but on its own thread perhaps?

    Having said that, Amerindian philosophers have not and cannot be included in the discussion because we know, essentially, nothing about them since they recorded nothing. Whereas Western and Eastern philosophy has been recorded in relative detail for nearly 3000 years.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NorthEast Region, N. America
    Posts
    467
    Chin,

    Thanks for the replys you guys. I was being a bit argumentive but also legitamatley confused, or perhaps challenged, by the meaning/ use of the word "the West" as applied to say, Western philosophy. It makes sense that in the old ancient world construct (Africa, Europe, Asia) things such as Greek philosophy would be considered "western philosophy" and that title has stuck to it's modern adherants. You guys cleared that one up!

    I don't want to argue but I will say that there are records that were kept by (New World/American) Native cultures. The Mayans had codexes, aka manuscripts with their own distinct heiroglyphic writing that the conquistadors mostly destroyed, with only a few remaining texts in existence today. In North America the Cherokee established an written alphabet (after colonization) that could be translated into English. There are two schools of thought behind this: 1) George Guess, a Cherokee, created the written alphabet during his day (1800's) & 2) George Guess edited an older, already existing written alphabet so it could more easily be translated into English. Nobody seems to know for sure which is the case. I would say that if he did it all himself, than he must have been a super-genius.
    Also, other North American First Nations had a "cruder" or if you will, more minimal and symbolic way of keeping records- not just in oral traditions but also in Birch Bark "scrolls" (the early colonists called them "scrolls"), but this was more like notching lines into the bark scroll, although the lines were indeed a language, much like old Irish Ogam- in fact many people confuse these markings for Ogam script, although they are slightly different and are American Indian in origin, most notably Algonquin. In fact not only birch bark was used, but there is a cave in Kentucky that has this script marked into the stone. Academics can actually decipher some of it. There are also stones in New England with this script to be found most notably in Vermont, usually associated with some of the stone Chamber and effigy sites.
    Lastly there are things like Wampum belts, which are a kind of written (artistic) record. Although these depict a sort of heiroglyphic pictograph they are to be read and understood for record-keeping. So there are records, but sort of in a different sense than "a westrner" would think to look in a book.
    Also there are Native stone monuments, such as effigy cairns, that can tell a story. I met a white man in my area who is a mathematician who studies cairn fields and he has determined that some of the cairn fields line up to constellations in the night sky. Other cairns marked ceremonial spots, where a battle was fought, or to remember a person (sort of like a Vietnam Memorial Wall). In this way, some of the stone-works are records, too.

    Sorry- I wrote more than I anticipated. That's all I have to say basically for what I understand of Native American record keeping, the 101. Now, back to the topic. It is amazing that after so long that figures like Plato, Lao Tzu, etc. are still being studied and relevant today.

    And again guys, thanks for clearing up the whole "west" thing- makes more sense to me now!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    Sorry- I wrote more than I anticipated.
    No thats very interesting, thank you.

    All ancient cultures should be treated with great reverence. I would love to know more about the wisdom of northern native America. I have, in the past, heard some scholars draw parallels between some native American cultures and those of Siberia and even Tibet. There are even some proposed links in language.

    Shamanistic cultures pervade the Ancient world. Interestingly when the Romans first came to England and encountered the Druids they described them as 'Pythagoreans'. I would suspect that when we compare the beliefs of all the most ancient cultures we will find remarkable parallels of ideas that must go back tens of thousands of years.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    4,900
    There is a LOT about the history of the world that isn't known, and/or not widely accepted or even considered.

    There are some amazing documented similarities between New Mexico's Zuni Indians and ancient Japanese, including words/language characteristics, origin legends, and other things. Not to mention that the Zuni were very different from all the other Native American tribes in the area. Is it all just coincidence? Something to think about.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NorthEast Region, N. America
    Posts
    467
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    There is a LOT about the history of the world that isn't known, and/or not widely accepted or even considered.

    There are some amazing documented similarities between New Mexico's Zuni Indians and ancient Japanese, including words/language characteristics, origin legends, and other things. Not to mention that the Zuni were very different from all the other Native American tribes in the area. Is it all just coincidence? Something to think about.
    Indeed! It really isn't that far of a stretch to look for similarities between people and cultures, across oceans, even. There is definitly a big part of history that is being left out of the standard history books and what academia is willing to accept. Through years of research looking at a "bigger picture" (going beyond my Native American roots- looking at the whole world) I can only conclude that there were grand civilizations before the last major ice age (12,000 BC.) So what we have is a ice age cataclysm (disclaimer- I am NOT talking about Atlantis because that is a load of hog-wash IMO).

    In the Northeast United States, they found a 11,000 year old (aka 9,000 BC) sophisticated arrowhead point near Lake Champlaign that was sourced from Rhama chert- Rhama chert is only found in Iceland. The team that found/ studied the arrowhead point call it a "smoking gun" artifact. So, we have a whole ancient trade network in the NorthEast that went from New York/ New Jersey into the New England states, and up into the Canadian maritime provinces (New Brunswick, etc.) and as far up as Iceland to at least get production material for tools and weapons, happening as far back as 11,000 years ago (9,000 BC), which is pretty close to the end of the last ice age. And a fact that I got from the academics themselves is that beyond 5,000 BC the Atlantic Ocean is more shallow than it is today, which would have made maritime travel easier, and there was more coastline. There are Native oral traditions, such as from the Wampanoag Nations, which survive today, which even describe these events (the changing of the landscape) in their mythology, another form of record keeping. Anyway, these details point out the sophistication of early Native culture in the NorthEast. Not to mention alot of the stoneworks I personally investigate are linked to one another over hundreds of miles through the in-land water-ways and old trail networks.

    Indeed, it seems that before the Christian era ancient man was not only a keen astronomer, but sophisticated maritime sailors as well, whether we are talking about Polynesians, Chinese, Egyptian sailing fleets, the Celts (invaded by Julius Caesar in the 2nd century), or the "Red Paint People"- the silly term academics have given the NorthEast Native American culture from thousands of years back into the "Archaic" period (more silly terms- if you look at culture as one continuous ebb and flow.)

    Some cool sites around the world to research are Gobekli Tepe in Turkey and Gunang Pudang in Indonesia. Gobekli Tepe is sophisticated stone ruins they have dated to as early as 13,000 BC (by the mainstream academics own records- they just don't like to publicize the site), and they feature stone columns, heiroglyphs, statues, possible stone calanders, etc. Gunang Pudang in Indonesia is possibly 20,000+ years old and follows a pyramid model-scheme, built on a hill-top (hill-top pyramid).

    It is interesting too the similarities between some of the stoneworks in Polynesia compared to South America. Archaelogists in the 1950's who did excavations in both Peru and Polynesia stated that the earliest stonework in Polynesia is identical to South American stonework. Before the Conquistadors, Peruvians made various kinds of reed boats that are identical to Polynesian reed boats. Also some of the pre-colombian Incan mummies are wrapped with a material only found in Polynesia. The Inca King Tupac was said to have visited Polynesia and it was Tupac who gave the Spanish sailing directions to Polynesia in the first place, Europeans never found Polynesia during their time in Asia before this. Not to mention the South American sweet potato found in Polynesia before colonial times, which needs to be cultivated. In the 1950's Thor Heyerdahl made a reed boat, the way ancient South Americans and Polynesians did, and sailed from Peru to one of the Polynesian islands in something like 90 days, safe and sound, even when professionals were calling him a nut-case who was going to get himself killed.

    So, these are just more examples as Jimbo pointed out- that us modern people don't really know everything there is to history. People were awesome for longer than we have realized. And Jimbo- from what I understand the ocean currents from the Japanese Islands should take sailors into the Northern Pacific off the coast of the United States.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    I can only conclude that there were grand civilizations before the last major ice age (12,000 BC.) So what we have is a ice age cataclysm (disclaimer- I am NOT talking about Atlantis because that is a load of hog-wash IMO).
    Interesting stuff!

    While you don't have to believe in the specifics of Atlantis, what you are talking about is the essence of the Atlantis myth and why it exists. That there were (relatively) advanced civilisations before recorded history destroyed by cataclysms.

    The original Atlantis myth is conserved in Plato's Timaeus (coincidently the same book I was on about earlier) and in Plato's Critias. So it is especially relevant here.

    The Myth is told by a man named Critias, he tells a story passed down by Solon, who had once been in Egypt. At the time the Greeks believed in the flood, the 'Deluge' (the same as the biblical one) where Deucalion survived (equivalent of Noah). When Solon asked the Egyptian priests about the flood they said:

    O Solon, Solon, you Greeks are ever children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a deviation of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. ----Plato's Timaeus

    So he explains why Egypt has all these ancient traditions and how the rest of the world is periodically destroyed. The story of Atlantis then goes into more detail and is added to in the dialogue 'Critias'. I believe these myths exist because people were aware of mass extinctions that happened periodically over thousands of years and stories were passed on and of course exaggerated.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    NorthEast Region, N. America
    Posts
    467

    Plato & Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Interesting stuff!

    While you don't have to believe in the specifics of Atlantis, what you are talking about is the essence of the Atlantis myth and why it exists. That there were (relatively) advanced civilisations before recorded history destroyed by cataclysms.

    The original Atlantis myth is conserved in Plato's Timaeus (coincidently the same book I was on about earlier) and in Plato's Critias. So it is especially relevant here.

    The Myth is told by a man named Critias, he tells a story passed down by Solon, who had once been in Egypt. At the time the Greeks believed in the flood, the 'Deluge' (the same as the biblical one) where Deucalion survived (equivalent of Noah). When Solon asked the Egyptian priests about the flood they said:
    .
    Nice, thanks for sharing that passage. I am aware of Plato's account of Atlantis (which you quoted a passage from). It is interesting that Plato learned this ultimately from the Egyptians (the Egyptian priesthood)- it is an old Egyptian record. Greek and Roman thought was heavily influenced by the earlier Egyptians and other cultures in that area like Babylon and Sumer. Even in the United States there is an Egyptian-style Obelisk outside the White House in Washington DC, overlooking the water (a water-gate.) This obelisk actually lines up with the Oval office, representing the male and female sex organs (obelisk is a male phallicy, while the oval office is feminine, oval= ovaries, also overlooking water which is feminine).

    Anyway, I don't like to use the "A" word (Atlantis) in my research because of all the hooey-phooey balogna associated with it. But what we are looking at when we go back in time is for sure sophisticated sea-farring cultures, that weren't as isolated as most people currently think. Their knowledge of astronomy was also excellent (used to measure time, navigation, even selection of land, etc.) Sites like Gobekli Tepe in Turkey and Gunang Pudang in Indonesia especially prove there was sophisticated culture before the last major ice age. It's going to take a lot more time though, I think, before academics and scholars will be able to get a clearer picture of this and understand for themselves what has happened.

    As far as Egypt goes I follow the work of John Anthony West ("alternative" historian) and Robert Schoch (geologist). Geologists are experts at analyzing stone, and Robert Schoch determined that the base of the Sphinx was weathered by water, which means that it is far older (when Egypt was more wet and not dessert) than mainstream academics and Egyptologists have dated it, and these scholars are mad at Schoch even though it is he, and not they, who is qualified to analyze and date the stone structure. The Sphinx also lines up with the constellation Leo in the night sky, but the last time this alignment occured was around 12,000 years ago. So with the alignment and the water weathering in mind it is a good bet we can say that the Sphinx is at least 12,000 years old. A Pharoh in later times chipped away some of the original stonework around the face of the structure, turning the face into his own image. The confounding thing about Egypt is that the more back in time you go, the more sophisticated the works seem to be. The later dynastic people's work was more sloppy (not as sophisticated) than the work that is closer to the last ice age.

    John Anthony West goes a step further though, and dates the Sphinx to something like 30,000- 36,000 years ago. And what he is doing, is, through records (that have been un-earthed), he is actually following what the Egyptians themselves (the primary source) said about some of these structures. For instance when the Romans visited Egypt they inquired about the pyramids and their origin, and the people couldn't tell them, they had no idea, indicating that the modern academic's obsession with placing the origin of these structures to just a few thousand years ago into dynastic times could be wrong. These same academics also ignore the primary source writings of the Egyptians themselves saying it is all a mythology and not to be taken literally which is a real dis-service. Also around 36,000 years ago, West notes, the Sphinx would have also lined up with the constelation Leo in the night sky.

    I am inclined to believe that West and Schoch are on to something, again with Egypt we see that there could be more to history than we currently realize.
    Last edited by MarathonTmatt; 12-03-2014 at 09:08 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •