Cheung Hung Sing: Founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu

[iron_silk]

Sifu Frank,

In Hung Sing CLF there are 8 Hand Forms?

Was Cheung Hung Sing able to pass on all his knowledge prior to his passing?

Just curious.

[CLFNole]

I think the 8 hand forms could be a bit of a legend because not all hung sing branches seem to have them; however names could have changed over time and forms could have been combined.

[hskwarrior]

Sifu Frank,

In Hung Sing CLF there are 8 Hand Forms?

Was Cheung Hung Sing able to pass on all his knowledge prior to his passing?

Just curious.

to be PERFECTLY honest, we don't know exactly what Cheung Hung Sing was teaching in regards to hand forms during his life aside from his personal Drunken Form. The one form we do know he taught was called "In and Out Bagua Kuen". During Chan Sing's generation this form was broken up into three smaller forms Called Cheung Kuen (360 Moves), Ping Kuen (280 Moves) and Kau Da Kuen (180 Moves).

Cheung Hung Sing also taught his own Drunken Form (Jui Jow Lan Da Kuen)- my sifu know's this form.

The 8 alleged forms are real forms. HOWEVER, i personally believe the 8 forms are posthumous forms (after Cheung Hung Sing's passing). why? because forms like Fut San Ping Kuen wasn't created by Cheung Hung Sing. it's origins to me begins with Chan Ngau Sing.

Chui Kwong Yuen's lineage has them. Now, the Elephant form (Mon Jeung) of Lau Bun's lineage is apart of these forms.

If we allow Doc Fai Wong to tell it, this is what HE has to say about it: After Chan Heung founded Choy Li Fut in 1836, he also actively participated in the anti-Manchurian government revolution. He spent a lot of effort training a group of students to get involved with the activities of the revolution. In 1848 Chan Heung set up 18 schools branched out all over the Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of Southern China. At that time, Hong Xiu Quan started the Taiping Rebellion and was the leader. He wanted to establish a new dynasty called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Because the Taiping Rebellion started, Chan Heung used eight Chinese characters to created eight major Choy Li Fut hand forms. Those were: Tai, Ping, Tian, Guo, Chang, An, Wan, Nian , which means “long live the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.” Chan Heung taught these eight forms to his students and encouraged them to participate in the revolutionary activities.

To conclude, personally i don't believe these forms were taught by Cheung Yim. Since Yuen Hai was one of Cheung Yim's more senior disciples ( Chan Sing's Senior by 20 or more years) and we don't teach them minus the Mon Jeung, I believe they were given birth to by Chan Ngau Sing.

Was Cheung Hung Sing able to pass on all his knowledge prior to his passing?

I would say yes. To whom? I would say Yuen Hai for sure since he was with Cheung Hung Sing from the very beginning all the way until his death. When Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai he was taught Cheung Kuen, Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Sup Ji Kuen, Mon Jeung, in addition to weapon forms. Remember, Lau Bun was in the USA when Chan Sing was still alive. So while Lau Bun was here, Chan Sing most likely kept creating new stuff and passed it down to his Fut San Students. so, it is my strong belief that Yuen Hai learned all Cheung Hung Sing had to teach as well as picking up the other forms.

[iron_silk]

to be PERFECTLY honest, we don't know exactly what Cheung Hung Sing was teaching in regards to hand forms during his life aside from his personal Drunken Form. The one form we do know he taught was called "In and Out Bagua Kuen". During Chan Sing's generation this form was broken up into three smaller forms Called Cheung Kuen (360 Moves), Ping Kuen (280 Moves) and Kau Da Kuen (180 Moves).

Cheung Hung Sing also taught his own Drunken Form (Jui Jow Lan Da Kuen)- my sifu know's this form.

The 8 alleged forms are real forms. HOWEVER, i personally believe the 8 forms are posthumous forms (after Cheung Hung Sing's passing). why? because forms like Ping Kuen wasn't created by Cheung Hung Sing. it's origins to me begins with Chan Ngau Sing.

Chui Kwong Yuen's lineage has them. Now, the Elephant form (Mon Jeung) of Lau Bun's lineage is apart of these forms.

If we allow Doc Fai Wong to tell it, this is what HE has to say about it: After Chan Heung founded Choy Li Fut in 1836, he also actively participated in the anti-Manchurian government revolution. He spent a lot of effort training a group of students to get involved with the activities of the revolution. In 1848 Chan Heung set up 18 schools branched out all over the Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of Southern China. At that time, Hong Xiu Quan started the Taiping Rebellion and was the leader. He wanted to establish a new dynasty called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Because the Taiping Rebellion started, Chan Heung used eight Chinese characters to created eight major Choy Li Fut hand forms. Those were: Tai, Ping, Tian, Guo, Chang, An, Wan, Nian , which means “long live the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.” Chan Heung taught these eight forms to his students and encouraged them to participate in the revolutionary activities.

To conclude, personally i don't believe these forms were taught by Cheung Yim. Since Yuen Hai was one of Cheung Yim's more senior disciples ( Chan Sing's Senior by 20 or more years) and we don't teach them minus the Mon Jeung, I believe they were given birth to by Chan Ngau Sing.



I would say yes. To whom? I would say Yuen Hai for sure since he was with Cheung Hung Sing from the very beginning all the way until his death. When Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai he was taught Cheung Kuen, Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Sup Ji Kuen, Mon Jeung, in addition to weapon forms. Remember, Lau Bun was in the USA when Chan Sing was still alive. So while Lau Bun was here, Chan Sing most likely kept creating new stuff and passed it down to his Fut San Students. so, it is my strong belief that Yuen Hai learned all Cheung Hung Sing had to teach as well as picking up the other forms.

This is very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. Who knew there would be so much difference within lineages so close together.

I am especially interesting in the Drunken Form you mentioned that was created by Cheung Hung Sing.

Thanks!

[hskwarrior]

This is very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. Who knew there would be so much difference within lineages so close together.

Difference. Difference is expected when two people separately develop something at the same time. Cheung Hung Sing trained with Chan Heung from 1836-1841. They didn't reunite until 1864 after the tai ping rebellion was over. they were in hong kong. So, between 1841-1864 (23 years) Chan Heung continued to develop HIS CLF while Cheung Yim was off learning Fut Gar from Monk Ching Cho from 1841-1849 then went to Fut San right after to participate in the Tai Ping Rebellion and train their fighters. Then from 1849 to 1864 Chan Heung continued on developing his system while Cheung Hung Sing was fighting in the revolution.

Between 1864-1867 Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing reunited and for three years advanced Choy Lee Fut together. Then from 1867 to 1893 (Cheung Hung Sing's Death) Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing agreed to continue separately developing their respective lineages. What is found in the King Mui lineages are not found in Cheung Hung Sing's lineage.

Now, if Cheung Hung Sing was representing Chan Heung and CH's CLF, then in 1875 when he took over the blind guys school who was using Chan Heung's Great Sage name, Cheung Hung Sing would not have taken down THAT name to replace it with his own Great Victory name.

There's no real evidence that the two lineages were so close to each other.

I am especially interesting in the Drunken Form you mentioned that was created by Cheung Hung Sing.

Thanks!

All i can tell you is that it doesn't have the movie style Drunken BS in it. But it will never be shared to the public from what i know unless someone breaks rank and shares it with the world like Troy Dunwood did with our elephant form.

[hskwarrior]

Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
to be PERFECTLY honest, we don't know exactly what Cheung Hung Sing was teaching in regards to hand forms during his life aside from his personal Drunken Form. The one form we do know he taught was called "In and Out Bagua Kuen". During Chan Sing's generation this form was broken up into three smaller forms Called Cheung Kuen (360 Moves), Ping Kuen (280 Moves) and Kau Da Kuen (180 Moves).

Let me clarify. After all i've researched i've come to think Cheung Hung Sing was not interested in teaching hand forms between 1851-1893. They were extremely busy fighting in every single revolution in southern China all the way up to 1949. As we all know, hand forms take time to master which is what active revolutionaries didn't have the luxory of (time). For example, if you were a General of an army, would you force your soldiers to practice and master hand forms (as if they will be done for a competition or demo)? Or, would you train you guys on the fighting aspect to make sure their combat skills are up to par? If i were a general, i would be focusing on the latter and make sure my students were combat ready. Hand forms were for a time of peace when no one was actively fighting. Makes me wonder how Chan Heung had so much time to create so many forms.

[iron_silk]

All i can tell you is that it doesn't have the movie style Drunken BS in it. But it will never be shared to the public from what i know unless someone breaks rank and shares it with the world like Troy Dunwood did with our elephant form.

Troy Dunwood he does seem to have learned quite a bit of different styles. His new focus is on Pek Kwar lately I believe.

I would love to see Drunken form you speak of (even if without the theatrics). A move or two would suffice?

[hskwarrior]

I haven't learned it. not really interested in it. but i do know it doesn't have that drunken feel about it tho.
i don't think anyone has it on film either. it's a pretty guarded set.

Troy has been switch hittin' for years now. The last one was he came out and said he was dropping all styles and just going all out Hung Sing CLF. what seemed only a few weeks later he totally reversed and said he was dropping hung sing to teach blah blah blah. he's done that so many times now, something had to stop. either you're with us or you're not. I wish him luck tho.

[iron_silk]

I haven't learned it. not really interested in it. but i do know it doesn't have that drunken feel about it tho.
i don't think anyone has it on film either. it's a pretty guarded set.

Troy has been switch hittin' for years now. The last one was he came out and said he was dropping all styles and just going all out Hung Sing CLF. what seemed only a few weeks later he totally reversed and said he was dropping hung sing to teach blah blah blah. he's done that so many times now, something had to stop. either you're with us or you're not. I wish him luck tho.

Understood.

He does seem to switch quite a bit over the years. Maybe he just has a lot of love to give and couldn't quite settle?

I am impressed with the massive amount of styles he is able to store. Then again...something is said for being able to specialize in one style and really focus on it so you can take it to another level.

[CLFNole]

Frank where did you find out about Cheung Yim creating a drunken set? Seems odd he would create a drunken set then more odd that you say its not very drunken. I have always had my reservations about "drunken" in general. We have a set but to be honest the whole idea of acting drunk makes no sense to me.

[hskwarrior]

Frank where did you find out about Cheung Yim creating a drunken set?

I don't believe i said he created one. However, i did say his personal Drunken Form. Jui Jow Lan Da Kuen. Actually there is more than one drunken form in Fut San Hung Sing, but according the Fut San that was his form.

In regards to its appearance, i can't speak on it. Sifu only showed me a few moves, but to me, i have no interest in a drunken form. However i hear its an intentionally SLOPPY looking form tho.

Still,it was the techniques from this drunken form Cheung Yim would use to defeat new potential students. he did it with both Yuen Hai and Chan Sing.

[CLFNole]

So it wasn't his creation but rather something he was taught? Is this something Futsan discovered or did you?

[hskwarrior]

So it wasn't his creation but rather something he was taught? Is this something Futsan discovered or did you?

It's not something Fut San discovered. It's something allegedly already there. Did he learn it from Monk Ching Cho? idk. I doubt he picked it up from Chan Heung tho. But there is tons of info in fut san that none of us outside of China was privy to. People tend to use their own perspective when thinking about fut san but Fut San was where it all started for my lineage. Unless its stories like killing a tiger with his bare hands or even a coat hanger as in Chan Heung's story i have no reason to disbelieve them. The story of how Cheung Yim defeated certain people was first told to me by my sigung Jew Leong. then Fut San confirmed the manner by telling their story about the same thing in regards to Chan Sing.

Again, Fut San is the birthplace of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. I cannot willingly dismiss what they say about our founder since we are all outsiders. our beliefs or disbeliefs is neither here nor there in regards to what went down in fut san. All i can do is listen and use common sense just in case something doesn't sound right.

[hskwarrior]

One of the great things about Cheung Hung Sing was he doesn't have any outlandish stories of killing tigers, super feats of strength, no magical spells, or tales of devastating Chi. He was a well known revolutionary fighter who was also referred to by styles such as wing chun as one of Southern China's greatest fighters.

[hskwarrior]

Another example of information unavailable those outside of china was Cheung Hung Sing was married and had two sons who died early on in life. His wife's name was Chan Kay. Outside of China, none of us knew this. we didn't know what year he died prior to fut san hung sing re-opening. We never knew Chan Sing had any written documentation before either. **** we didn't even know if Chan Sing had a family. But, even today his great grand daughter still practices her great grand fathers style.