What's the difference between a soft and a hard style?

[shaolinboxer]

I was reading an old articel by Bruce Lee on wing chun and he clearly decribes it as a soft style, which I found interesting.

The only difference I can see between the two (hard/soft) is that hard styles use antagonistic muscle contraction in movement in order to increase stabilty of their technique, while soft styles avoid antagonistic contraction and try to focus on unilateral or extended movement.

[jon]

Im from Hung Ga which is a cma often mistakenly called an "external" art. We certianly use external force, however we do have a LOT of internal elements as well.
I personaly think a lot of what go's to name a style is in its training.
In Tai Chi which ive also done a little of, they teach soft power first all the moves are soft and dont use strength at all. However at a certain level it starts to blend with external power as well.
This is the opposite in Hung Ga where first your taught to develop and use strength then leading into more internal development.
My theory on a lot of this is simple in the end all arts blend the soft with the hard. However they get to this level differently. In Hung its first though the ext in Tai Chi its first though the int.
I think a lot of this internal vs external stuff is actualy just from students who havent fully learnt either art so have been shown a bias for either one or the other.

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...

[Water Dragon]

Hey Sleepy, I have a question for you on Hung Gar being a hard, not external style. I don't know the system, but from what I've seen, it relies on the back leg "locking" out the power in much the same way as a boxer locks out his cross. (see my prior post) Is this true? If it is, Wouldn't it just "internalize" so that a senior will do it, but you can't see it? I'm curious as to if you have seen this. It seems very common in Long Fist as well.

[jon]

Not being a advanced student im not exactly sure of the mechanics of the later forms.
The stuff ive learnt so far, yes you do straiten the back leg in a fashion though i wouldnt say you exactly make it rigid. This is dependent of stance though. Still 'locked' is a bad choice of words the leg is strait but you never 'lock' any joint. Its like the Yin Yang and like a famous saying "Hard as iron soft as thread" the trick is to always have a balance of the two. Never just one without the other. Another good way of looking at it within my style is the idea of an iron wire [also a form name] its hard and cant be snapped but at the same time totaly pliable.
I guess my main point was that i dont really belive that there is a real external or internal ONLY martial art. I think all good arts are a nice blend between the two. Its just as stated some start with hard some with soft.
Hope that half answered your question and i havent gone off on to much of a tangent.

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...

[Water Dragon]

Sure did. If you can't tell, I'm a power mechanic freak. I didn't mean "lock" as in a physical locking out, although I'm sure that's probably what beginners do. I meant "locked" more in terms of a line of force that can be felt from the fist to the back foot. To me, it would equate to a boxer locking the shoulder or a Taiji guy locking the kua. Neither of which are rigid actions.

Here's something interesting. I have recently switched to San Ti for power generation. San Ti also contains a locking, but it's in the front leg. The power seems to hit the front leg and bounce into the opponent. I don't understand it yet, but it's intriguing. Totally different from any other art I've experienced.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I always thought the differences was that hard styles tend to be more ridged and direct in their applications, soft styles tend to be more flexible and indirect. These are to extremes probably most of what people do falls in between.


For me there is a very big difference between what is called internal and external. This doesn’t mean better just different. Also it depends on what your looking for and what your mind set is. I do not believe it is possible to achieve the same level of internal work in all styles regardless of how long some one plays it as those that play an internal style.

A person might gain some elements of it but it would be very rudimentary compared to a true internlaist.
The ability to use this skill combatively is not easy to come by and requires much work and understanding.

because some one plays an internal style doesn’t mean that what he/she dose is really internal or that they will really achieve the ability to make their art internal again it takes a lot of work.

As far as internal verses external. The classics state that force comes from the bones and chin comes form the sinews

When I push or punch there is no tension in my body or in my hand, what I release is best described as mind intent.

This to me means that what is called internal strength is not a product of mechanical leverage or of tensing the muscles although it might appear to be so depending on your level of experience and understanding.

Water Dragon, said in another post he was uprooted by a YI Chuan guy. This is a good example of real internal strength. In his post he said it felt like a spring was released he was lifted up and back.
It might be interesting to hear more of what it felt like. :)

bamboo leaf

[JWTAYLOR]

Some like it hard, some like it soft. Some like it soft then hard, but I'm always hard then soft.
You know how it is.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Mr. Nemo]

Water Dragon: Are you saying tensing at the moment of impact is low-level technique?

I've never heard of someone tensing as they strike and then relaxing as they hit.

[Water Dragon]

OK Mr. Nemo. We’re getting into things here that are hard as hell to describe, but real easy to show. I’ll probably screw this up. First, the slight squeezing of the fist that everyone does is not tension. Tension is squeezing your whole hand as in when you are angry. Two different things.

You’ve never heard of tensing and then releasing? It is also known as gathering the qi, silk reeling, coiling, strength comes from the tendon and a whole lot of other names. Try this to get the flavor. Hold your arm out, palm down. Now rotate your palm clockwise trying to get the pinky to point to the ceiling. Notice how you begin to tighten up even though your not tensing muscles? When you let that go, that is also power.

In regards to the Yi Quan guy, what happened is I was pushing into him. I kind of wound him up and he released. Hard to do, but in no way mystical.

[honorisc]

Those who have heard about it: Hard =Japanese Martial Arts; Soft=Chinese Martial Arts and aren't Koreans Japanese.

Those who know more: Hard=everything, not the traditional three Internal Arts (T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-I and Pa Kua); Soft=the stereotypically traditionally three Internal Arts (T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-I and Pa Kua).

People who don't know but try to reason it out would call almost any Martial Art Hard from that it's rigid techniques to they hit hard. Or Any Martial Art Soft, because it looks/seems useless and pretty to fluid.

Hard and Soft are categories for beginings of Martial Arts. Based on appearance (not having studied) (categories for non-practitioners (to grasp a general idea of what they are like or about)).

Hard=forced /deliberate tension, based on power (brute force, strength).

Soft=flexible--dance like moves.


I No_Know

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Merryprankster]

No_know,

I actually followed your post, and I don't think you are right at all.

I don't think Hard equals strength and brute force, but then, I'm trying to glean knowledge here... soo....

[honorisc]

That was interesting that you don't think I'm right. And I basically, have no problem with that. I actually think that it's nice. Nice that you could follow the post an nice that you tell that you don't agree. My arrogance would be well rewarded if after twenty years we met and you told me that you now think I was right. For this now though the absolute truth is secondary. And you need steps to understanding. And comfort with what you learn.

I hope that you get what you need to get the understanding you would like; even if I'm other than correct. :~>

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[rogue]

But then you run into "hard" styles like Isshinryu, Hapkido, Hwarangdo and even some Shotokan and early TKD that contain a lot of soft(yielding) techniques.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."