Wing Chun grappling

[stonecrusher69]

[anerlich]

The last move might work against that chi-na style attack on the elbow/shoulder, but how would you stop him changing to a back clinch from there? The standard grappling response to a side headlock like that.

A wrestler would probably go for that underhook on the right arm but also grab your left wrist, tricep or head as well. How would you stop that?

Not dissing the stuff in the vid, but hoping to start a discussion.

[Wayfaring]

Don't want to discourage pursuit of the topic, but real grappling that you are trying to design "anti-grappling" exercises against looks more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptaNak1B3_Q

This might require developing a little more skilled response than "making a fist". Keep investigating.

[Wu Wei Wu]

"While I think that it is important for people to know something about grappling I doubt if most people can get away from a good grappler's takedown. If you study wrestlers you can see that even when they know what their opponent is going to do it is difficult to stop a leg dive. I used to have an on going discussion with my former friend Ed Hart who was Bruce's second student and one hell of a streetfighter about countering people who shot on you and are good at it. At the time Ed's son who was a grappler was working with a coupler of national level grapplers in the Seattle area. Sometime Ed would play with them and stop them with certain moves. I always told him that these guys respected him and they won't really come at him because they might hurt him/ He would always get mad when I said this and would then say what am I suppose to do against a grappler. Me answer was to attack him before he attacks you. Ed did have a couple of students who did stop a couple of takedown attacks in fights but I don't think that what they did would have worked against top flight grapplers.

A could of years ago I checked out a video from ther library on Dan Gable working with grapplers. One was a world chapion and the other was a national champion. The world champion got behind the national champ so quickly that the guy didn't have a chance to react. After I saw how quickly those guys could close I thought that only chance that someone would have against them would be to make the first move. There use to be a man named Douglas who always made it to the top four or five grapplers in the US nationals and his primary techniques was takedowns which he could do from five to six feet even against top level grapplers who knew what he was going to do.

I think that the average high school grappler would take most people to the ground without much of a problem. Rugby player are also very good at closing with leg dives. One of the saving graces against a grappler is that the streets are hard which might prevent them from attacking real low because of possible damage to their knees. While I think that it is prudent to practice counter moves to grappling I am not convinced that these moves will work against people who have (trained) hundreds of thousands of leg attacks."

Jesse Glover (Non-Classical Gung Fu)

[anerlich]

To be fair, the video is entitled, "Anti Chin Na", not "antigrappling".

[anerlich]

Don't want to discourage pursuit of the topic, but real grappling that you are trying to design "anti-grappling" exercises against looks more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptaNak1B3_Q

This might require developing a little more skilled response than "making a fist". Keep investigating.

That is a great video!

[Kellen Bassette]

"While I think that it is important for people to know something about grappling I doubt if most people can get away from a good grappler's takedown. If you study wrestlers you can see that even when they know what their opponent is going to do it is difficult to stop a leg dive.

It's not that difficult to stuff takedowns. Spar with wrestlers and you'll figure it out.
Watch some MMA, takedowns get stuffed all the time.

[stonecrusher69]

The last move might work against that chi-na style attack on the elbow/shoulder, but how would you stop him changing to a back clinch from there? The standard grappling response to a side headlock like that.

A wrestler would probably go for that underhook on the right arm but also grab your left wrist, tricep or head as well. How would you stop that?

Not dissing the stuff in the vid, but hoping to start a discussion.

I'll try to write something up tomorrow.I just worked 14hrs today and Im feeling very tired..

[Vajramusti]

That is a great video!

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For sure.

[Wayfaring]

"While I think that it is important for people to know something about grappling I doubt if most people can get away from a good grappler's takedown. If you study wrestlers you can see that even when they know what their opponent is going to do it is difficult to stop a leg dive. I used to have an on going discussion with my former friend Ed Hart who was Bruce's second student and one hell of a streetfighter about countering people who shot on you and are good at it. At the time Ed's son who was a grappler was working with a coupler of national level grapplers in the Seattle area. Sometime Ed would play with them and stop them with certain moves. I always told him that these guys respected him and they won't really come at him because they might hurt him/ He would always get mad when I said this and would then say what am I suppose to do against a grappler. Me answer was to attack him before he attacks you. Ed did have a couple of students who did stop a couple of takedown attacks in fights but I don't think that what they did would have worked against top flight grapplers.

A could of years ago I checked out a video from ther library on Dan Gable working with grapplers. One was a world chapion and the other was a national champion. The world champion got behind the national champ so quickly that the guy didn't have a chance to react. After I saw how quickly those guys could close I thought that only chance that someone would have against them would be to make the first move. There use to be a man named Douglas who always made it to the top four or five grapplers in the US nationals and his primary techniques was takedowns which he could do from five to six feet even against top level grapplers who knew what he was going to do.

I think that the average high school grappler would take most people to the ground without much of a problem. Rugby player are also very good at closing with leg dives. One of the saving graces against a grappler is that the streets are hard which might prevent them from attacking real low because of possible damage to their knees. While I think that it is prudent to practice counter moves to grappling I am not convinced that these moves will work against people who have (trained) hundreds of thousands of leg attacks."

Jesse Glover (Non-Classical Gung Fu)

Hey Suki,

Thanks for the Jesse Glover quote. w/r to top level guys not really coming at him - I can actually speak to that. It's not so much they don't come at you, it's more that they handle 98% of people without having to shift into their top 2 gears. I tend to poke the bear and try and bring out the other 2% and get p4wned, but it's all good fun

Yes it's very true w/r to levels in wrestling - like international medalists/Olympians top, College All American next, and on down AAAA to AAA to AA then high school champs which in tough states usually go on. So what level do you try and prepare against? I mean the best you can and keep working up. I get the sense Jesse has a little fatalistic attitude about being able to stop an Olympian's shot. With good fundamentals and lots of practice I believe you can. Maybe not every shot in a 3 minute round, but yes you can stuff them That's also a great thing about the top level guys - they want to bring you up to compete with them.

I always recommend working good fundamentals in for preparation. In that sense, take a look at this John Smith clinic: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...5C704BD6B18BC6

The same footwork we are developing in wing chun, if the hips are sunk a bit lower, we enter the realm of the wrestler's stance and motion. Therein lies the fundamentals to develop - add a hip sink and rise to develop the core fundamentals to deal with a wrestler's shot.

The thing I don't like about Jesse's quote and what I would like to change the course of with respect to more traditional arts is this:

"I think that the average high school grappler would take most people to the ground without much of a problem."

I think it is a realistic goal for wing chun practitioners to develop fundamentals in their art such that the average high school grappler cannot take them to the ground without much of a problem.

[Wayfaring]

The wrestler's shot, and dealing with it. Well, there are two aspects to handle:

1) Level Change
2) Penetration

If they can effectively level change and penetrate, then they have your center and the takedown.

Defenses

1) Level Change - If you level change with a wrestler on their shot, then you have all the same defenses you did at the standing level, plus you prevent them from getting under your center of gravity. Try practicing this - work with wrestlers, and just change levels when they shoot. You'll notice you probably still get a leg snagged and taken down at first. After a while, step a leg back they are reaching for and change levels with them. This is what John Smith is talking about as a proper sprawl.

2) Penetration - typical wing chun you would expect to be able to defend penetration at both the outer gate and inner gate, right? Yes. From a wrestler's perspective, they actually view defending the shot with 3 weapons at 3 ranges:

a) outer range with hands
b) medium range with head
c) inner range with elbows

The b) range wing chun people aren't familiar with - but there's a wrestler's drill to stop the shot with your head gripping both hands behind your back in stance and motion where people shoot on you - you bend over and defend the shot with the head. I don't know what I'd recommend for wing chun folks with respect to this, but I mean if you're sinking your hips down on a guy and sprawling out, try timing using your head too if you want. It's an add-on tool.

Work drills defending with your other tools too - man sau hand wu sau hand - those guys can develop skill in fending off crashing energy, and combined with a hip sink or rise, I think that's the ticket. I believe those would be more traditional wing chun hand skills there.

Anyway I guess I'm contributing to the discussion on wing chun handling the grappling attack stuff.

[stonecrusher69]

The last move might work against that chi-na style attack on the elbow/shoulder, but how would you stop him changing to a back clinch from there? The standard grappling response to a side headlock like that.

A wrestler would probably go for that underhook on the right arm but also grab your left wrist, tricep or head as well. How would you stop that?

Not dissing the stuff in the vid, but hoping to start a discussion.

Hmm when I made the video I was thinking in more of mechanics not countering the counter. I think I should have made it your way.

[Vajramusti]

Hmm when I made the video I was thinking in more of mechanics not countering the counter. I think I should have made it your way.

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KISS. Stay with what comes-including china attack- escort it out with the right timing-assuming good structure
relaxation and coordinated dynamics. That is if you are seeking a way out...strike or throw or break depending on opportunity.