Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Shoulders up vs down

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Moon
    Posts
    709

    Shoulders up vs down

    boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
    If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?
    S.Teebas

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
    Posts
    1,592
    Quote Originally Posted by S.Teebas View Post
    boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
    If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?
    If whether your have your shoulders up or down is what results in your being knocked out I would say you have other issues to worry about.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by S.Teebas View Post
    boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
    If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?
    The issue really isn't shoulders up, it is leading with your chin.
    That said, boxers don't really "lift" their shoulders, they tuck in their chin.
    Keeping your chin up, and by that I mean keeping it and your face in the way they always are, is a very bad habit BUT one that gets taken care of very quickly IF you spar on a regular basis.
    It is true that we tend to see too many MA ( not just WC people) fight with their chin up or lead with their face BUT that is simply due to the fact that they don't spar hard contact enough.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by S.Teebas View Post
    boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
    If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?
    In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
    Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it's the height of the chin that's more important.


    I'd like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?
    Last edited by Kellen Bassette; 01-06-2015 at 07:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
    Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it's the height of the chin that's more important.


    I'd like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Responding in good faith without claiming to represent all of wing chun.
    Wing Chun is an entirely different system from Muay Thai or Western boxing.
    In my wc the head is an integral partof the upper body structure and the spine and neck vertebrae
    are balanced accrordingly in keeping with gravity.
    Yes the chin is a major vuleranable point but so is the neck, the temple, the eyes, the heart etc etc.
    Many wc folks dont understand the important details of the dynamics and geometry of the hand structure.
    When the proper two hand structure is dynamically applied- with a properly trained wing chun person
    is pretty well protected at the chin, the neck, the chest etc.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,664
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
    May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

    When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-06-2015 at 02:32 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by S.Teebas View Post
    boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
    If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?
    No, not really.
    Lifting both shoulders in boxing is a bad habit, increases tension, reduces power speed and response time

    Having said that, some guys (Mayweather - Hopkins - Toney for eg) do use variations of the "philly shell" which uses the lead (front) shoulder to deflect punches.
    Heres a good breakdown from FMJ himself;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo

    As a few of the other poster have said, its chin down that the really want

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.
    Maybe not, but he still tucks it.

    Name:  rhino.jpg
Views: 1226
Size:  27.3 KB
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

    When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.

    And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go
    hahaha ...


    This 'rhino' strategy...gives me pause. It seems purely defensive; uses two hands against one; and appears to be "rhino'ing" only the upper gate area.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

    When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.

    Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
    Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
    Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
    Posts
    1,592
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
    Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
    Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.
    Gotta agree.

    Seems like a cheap rip off of a Silat entry.
    Although, I have never seen a Silat entry employed quite like that.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
    Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
    Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.
    He's exploiting the biu sau angle. I mean it shows the angle works. But beyond that please hold your hands like that sparring with me. You're completely powerless to stop kicks or takedowns.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
    Posts
    1,592
    I think that sometimes people do not realize that some things are not meant to be applied in a static posture.
    Take the "X" block. It can be very effective if one employs movement with the technique.
    If you just stick your hands out and hold them there you will get hit.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,664
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
    Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.
    If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent's face. But the "punching" is not the purpose for this. The "over extended" is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent's head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.

    This strategy may sound like "conservative" from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it's very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to lock his head. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the "rhino guard" to protect your head, but your opponent's punch will always expose his head.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-07-2015 at 10:31 AM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •