Shoulders up vs down

[GlennR]

The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

Interesting.
You'd call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it...... what a fighter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D-sp8xbZv0

Also, heres a breakdown of it by a gent i subscribe to on youtube (good channel if you like boxing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a03y_kd_yWk


So i guess, responding to Johns "rhino guard", there is a place for the unconventional but, personally, id like to see someone that actually uses it rather than on compliant students

[anerlich]

in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.

Yeah, I think that's right. The shell is only to stay protected until you can latch on with better controls and stop the ability for the other guy to punch.

In Joe Rogan's recent interview with Rickson Gracie and Eddie Bravo, Eddie talks about how he based the rubber guard on old school vale tudo defence from guard, viz. overhook and neck tie. My BJJ instructor's first line of guard defence nogi or MMA is overhook one arm, foot on the opposite hip, grab the free wrist with shin inside the arm. Lots of grappling options from there.

You'd call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it...... what a fighter

You're right. John Famechon, and particularly his trainer Ambrose Palmer, made good use of the cross defence as well.

I would call those guys the rhino guard.

They are big guys. The black belt in particular, Darko Zaric, is a good friend of mine and occasional instructor. Black Belt Open Australian Machado champ. They are both great technicians. The other guy, Tim, has a really nasty half guard game.

I see some parallels with John's Rhino Guard and Tony Blauer's Spear, if anyone remembers that. I know next to zero about Krav Maga but I've seen clips of KM guys using similar entries. In some ways all of this stuff appears to be variations on similar concepts.

[anerlich]

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.

This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.

[Vajramusti]

This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.

------------------------------------------------------------------Shell-visor- not bad ideas at all---the rhino seems like a nice enough variation.
Not just Norton- Archie Moore also had his variation- but Marciano ploughed through it.
Tyson's original peekaboo also had a relaxed closed triangle. After D'Amato died, Tyson's peekaboo
opened up and Buster Douglas could and did get through both with jab and uppercut.