Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30

Thread: Technique vs. Courage

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469

    Technique vs. Courage

    Hey Team,

    I was reading about the Spartans in one of Plutarchs moral essays and came across an interesting quote;

    They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage


    I find this quite a thought provoking idea from arguably the greatest warriors of the ancient world. Rather than project my opinions on it, what do you think of this method of 'teaching'? Would you employ it for your sons?
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 01-07-2015 at 01:45 PM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  2. #2
    Strength and courage trump technique. They are a prerequisite for applying technique.

    I like the idea of sparring/wrestling from day one. I don't like the idea of never learning technique, although I am not sure if that is what is being implied.
    I would think these boys would pick up/be taught technique as they go, improve/develop inside the environment, instead of training for years outside the environment before ever being tried.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,111
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage
    Technique and mastery are more than just little tricks.

    And there is technique in how to use strength.

    For children, starting with strength and courage can give them a better understanding for technique later on. Also good to maximize their strength development early.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Pound Town
    Posts
    7,856
    when spartans were gonna get married they had to shave the womans head and make her look like a teenage boy.

    Honorary African American
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
    Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    when spartans were gonna get married they had to shave the womans head and make her look like a teenage boy.
    You just got to ruin everything, don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post

    I like the idea of sparring/wrestling from day one. I don't like the idea of never learning technique, although I am not sure if that is what is being implied.
    I agree, I don't think it means they never trained technique, but when they begin they learn that courage is more important.

    In my experience there is a huge difference from fighting in reality to fighting in sport or training. The difference however is nothing to do with rules or technique or style, but to do with incentive and emotion and purpose.

    You never get a second chance at a first impression. I think the Spartans want the boys to approach combat with courage and purpose always. If they had started with technical training then when the boys sparred they would do so as if it were a game to be won, thinking minutely about technique and strategy, gaining little experience of fear and courage. But when they fight for real, when their life is genuinely in danger, they cannot actually think so technically. By starting them off engaging their instinct, when they grow up and fight for real they will approach combat in a stronger frame of mind. Just my opinions.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    You never get a second chance at a first impression. I think the Spartans want the boys to approach combat with courage and purpose always. If they had started with technical training then when the boys sparred they would do so as if it were a game to be won, thinking minutely about technique and strategy, gaining little experience of fear and courage. But when they fight for real, when their life is genuinely in danger, they cannot actually think so technically. By starting them off engaging their instinct, when they grow up and fight for real they will approach combat in a stronger frame of mind. Just my opinions.
    I like this line of thinking...very interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  8. #8
    Greetings,

    I believe there is a hormonal and mental benefit to the training of strength and courage in that it results in a heightened arousal that may allow for accelerated uptake and better retention of information.


    mickey

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,111
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage


    I find this quite a thought provoking idea from arguably the greatest warriors of the ancient world. Rather than project my opinions on it, what do you think of this method of 'teaching'? Would you employ it for your sons?
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    TCMA puts skill in third place behind strength and guts. Guts, strength, skill.
    I've posted on this related to how I train children, including(especially) my sons and nephews.

    One thing about kids, is that they are still growing and they don't have the physical coordination to do some things.

    I give them methods suitable to their level of physical development, and I train their spirit/courage/guts/aggression.

    There are lots of students that have strength and technique, but lack the guts to apply them under pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    [...]
    Then "3 second death match" for explosive aggression to end the fight quickly and cleanly.

    In the "kill or be killed" context, 10-30 seconds can be too long. Originally, I gave students only 5 seconds to take out the other guy, and even that was too long and allowed for hesitation. 3 seconds worked out about right.

    The result from combination of continuous sparring and also 3 second time limit worked pretty well, and it showed when they went to spar people outside of our group.

    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    This training develops the aggressive intent for instantaneous all out attack.

    The ideal would be to end the fight. That may not be possible, but you still have advantage over someone that did not train this.

    Also, you can get in a lot more than just one punch in 3 seconds.

    One of my students went to Air Force Academy. He was the smallest cadet and got put up against the biggest guy for pugil stick matches. He took him out in less than 3 seconds.

    Another student liked to go to open mat sparring. He went up against blackbelts, boxers, and MMA guys, some that outweighed him by up to 80lbs. He had them consistently on the run from his attacks.
    When they were young, I trained them to spar against me using full force. This was to develop their functional strength on the techniques they learned.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,111
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    When they were young, I trained them to spar against me using full force. This was to develop their functional strength on the techniques they learned.
    In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

    I told them that if they could hit me hard enough to make me stop laughing and say, "OW!" that they could pick what to do for the rest of the class that day.

    That really motivated them and they would go home to their parents and tell them how close they were to getting me to say "OW!" and that they "knew" they could get me the next time.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    DengFeng
    Posts
    1,469
    I like it N, thanks.

    3 second Death match, I'm going to try that one. No time to get lost in thinking, just do it!
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Columbia, MO
    Posts
    809
    Before the rise of Macedon, Greek warfare consisted of shield wall formations of hoplites pushing against each other. Battles were decisive, short (under an hour), and full of customs and stipulations. Battles were won by strength, determination, and willingness to engage the enemy. Given this context, it's clear why Sparta had a reputation.

    In the martial arts, reliance on teaching technique is not good, especially in the beginning. I assisted with a junior high school judo club, the first few weeks of the school year were spent learning how to struggle and figure out things on your own (in addition to ukemi and basic exercises). Students were paired, one on his back and the other in a mount position. The students on the bottom would attempt to escape from the mount. We'd do this in 2 minute rounds, with students changing positions and changes partners frequently. If you have no technique, it is very difficult to do at first, but over time you learn to struggle and figure out a way. It strengths both the body and the heart. After a few days of this, many students start to figure out ways to escape...they can share their experiences with the other students. After a week or two of this, we would teach them standard escapes and counters.

    Learning how to struggle and focus your will is the foundation of good martial arts, which is why I usually direct people to study a "modern" martial art first before they learn a traditional one.
    "I'm a highly ranked officer of his tong. HE is the Dragon Head. our BOSS. our LEADER. the Mountain Lord." - hskwarrior

  13. #13
    In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

    -N-,

    I heard through the grapevine that your Sifu did this. And I am on the East Coast!!!


    mickey

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,111
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

    -N-,

    I heard through the grapevine that your Sifu did this. And I am on the East Coast!!!


    mickey
    LOL. Didn't even think about that. Too funny.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,111
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Learning how to struggle and focus your will is the foundation of good martial arts [...]
    After all is said and done, that is what I want my students to have and apply to everything. Not just to kungfu.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •