Kung Fu Lineage Terms

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Can someone tell me the subtle difference between the following terms: todai, sau tao, and hok san. Are these words still in common usage? I've heard these terms and wondered about the exact differences. I hope I spelled them correctly. Thanks in advance for the people who know and understand these words.

[hskwarrior]

Can someone tell me the subtle difference between the following terms: todai, sau tao, and hok san. Are these words still in common usage? I've heard these terms and wondered about the exact differences. I hope I spelled them correctly. Thanks in advance for the people who know and understand these words.

do you know what they mean? and if you do, why wouldn't they be used in common martial art usage?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I know that they imply different levels of discipleship. Especially todai, which means a close disciple to the sifu. I'm not sure about the other two though. I was told that hok san and sau tau (or sau to, I'm not sure) is a student of some type.

[SPJ]

I know that they imply different levels of discipleship. Especially todai, which means a close disciple to the sifu. I'm not sure about the other two though. I was told that hok san and sau tau (or sau to, I'm not sure) is a student of some type.

Hok San could just mean student in general

[David Jamieson]

There's nothing like having several dozen mutually unintelligible dialects is there? lol

[SPJ]

sau tu

could mean

junior apprentice

what you have are 3 levels:

1 general students (entry level)

2 junior apprentice (intermediate level)

3 disciple (closed door stuff).

[lkfmdc]

"sau tau" can also mean stupid.....

no ****

[SPJ]

dialects aside.

If we can have Chinese characters, we may know what are they all about.

[SteveLau]

Todai, sau tao, and hok san - these are English words of Chinese characters by their Cantonese pronunication.

Their meaning:

todai - disciple
sau tao - first disciple
hok san - student


These terms can be applied to any subject of study, includes martial art training. They are all still in common usage. I am not an structor. But if I were to teach, I would use the neutral term, student, to address my student.



KC
Hong Kong

[David Jamieson]

Too complicated for my taste.

teacher, student.

that's pretty much the beginning and end of the training relationship.

"closed door" stuff is typically...well, silly and it advocates further silliness by letting someone think that because they were shown a special form that they now magically have more fighting prowess, which is nonsense. Fighting is fighting and how many forms one has has pretty much nothing to do with that. This is either a cultural holdover, spirit boxer nonsense, a method of creating added value etc etc.

If you go to a school to learn to fight and you never fight then you have been, well, tricked or not properly trained by said school which professes to teach you how to fight.

Barring of course the simple idea that if your ass is too fat to fight and you get gassed ordering a Big Mac, then you need to be put into shape first and given some body balance through training. After you get that though, let the fighting happen!

[GeneChing]

teacher, student.

that's pretty much the beginning and end of the training relationship.

You know, I learn a lot from my Kung Fu siblings as we cross hands the most. I would never discount them from my training. The thing is that Chinese styles are clan driven while many other styles have more militant roots and ranking hierarchy. I've always preferred the familial organization; As dysfunctional as it might get, it's more human to me, especially given that schools are more family-oriented now for the most part. I'm now training alongside someone that used to be my student when I instructed for another school. He's been with our new school for like a decade and a half while I just started there. So I'm his shixiong from years ago but within this school, he's my shixiong. We agreed to just call each other xiongdi and leave it at that. Neither of us have discipled under the school master. I'm a disciple of another master, but that's a different story. Dysfunctional, even incestuous, but ultimately very human.

[bawang]

all the elder younger brother is smoke and mirror. you are rice bowl.

[David Jamieson]

You know, I learn a lot from my Kung Fu siblings as we cross hands the most. I would never discount them from my training. The thing is that Chinese styles are clan driven while many other styles have more militant roots and ranking hierarchy. I've always preferred the familial organization; As dysfunctional as it might get, it's more human to me, especially given that schools are more family-oriented now for the most part. I'm now training alongside someone that used to be my student when I instructed for another school. He's been with our new school for like a decade and a half while I just started there. So I'm his shixiong from years ago but within this school, he's my shixiong. We agreed to just call each other xiongdi and leave it at that. Neither of us have discipled under the school master. I'm a disciple of another master, but that's a different story. Dysfunctional, even incestuous, but ultimately very human.

I hear you and I acknowledge the particular properties and constructs associated with the development of organized styles of TCMA. I agree that exchange and share with others who practice is vital to personal development. But the teacher does have what you seek but don't have. What's to offer but an eagerness to learn? Most soldiers don't train under the general, they get their basic from a DI and their orders from any rank above them. I can see how heirarchy serves an institution of learning or even how it naturally occurs in a filial environment. Still, that moment of transfer and understanding is strictly between the teacher and student.

[SPJ]

Kung fu family tree

It is one big family and growing.

Many and many kung fu cousins.

As your kung fu brothers and sisters have more and more students, it gets quite confusing.

[SteveLau]

I go for modern Kung Fu school. And we address fellow students by their first name or classmate Wong, for example. The rules, custom, etc. are reflection of the culture and values of the school. It is just a matter of fact that TCMA has its pros and cons. The lineage terms let us peer into the CMA culture.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong