Vertical VS Horizontal

[Rojcewicz]

Hello, I wanted to start a thread to discuss an issue that I haven't found much information on:
the issue of vertical versus horizontal power. Like many martial arts enthusiasts, I was very much
attracted to the idea of "transcendent strength", "Huanyuan Li", or "Peng" that eastern martial arts,
particularly the so called internal arts, speak of as there goal in training. Like many, once I started to train I was very much
disappointed by the lack of such achievement in myself as well as most teachers I've met. I say most because
I have experienced strength which seems disproportionate to the size of the person wielding it, namely in the master Chen Zhonghua:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4HjMTAGBE

So to get to my point. It seems very few people in the martial arts are determined to use vertical power to deal with horizontal situations.
What does that mean? It means when you do a squat to lift up a heavy box, you are using the power you have to move vertically (down and then up)
to lift the heavy box. When you are pushing a car that has failed to start, you adjust your alignment in order to push with your legs through your arms
into the car. The adjustment is so that your bodies vertical power (ability to move down and up) can be applied to a horizontal conflict (your hands meet the car by moving horizontally in space).

Recently I saw this video of Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson, walking with a log on his shoulders that weights over 1,000 pounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpUrXJNcS_8

So we know, that the human body can have tremendous power in its vertical orientation. If there
was ever a mysterious and forgotten skill in the world of martial arts, it is the method of applying
vertical power to overcome horizontal conflicts. Thankfully it is really very simple and nearly every traditional form
contains all the necessary movements.

My advice is this: treat your stances as squats, dropping, rising. Drop like your going to sit on the ground (don't worry about your back bending forward, its natural)
rise to stand up. Your stances without moving horizontally in space should just be squats in the normal exercise sense. Two leg or one leg, stances should be squats. Stepping
method should be a normal step with a squat integrated. A slight squat or a deep squat, but still essentially a squat. Hand methods should not interfere with your squatting action.
once contact is made through the horizontal movement of the hand or body in space, the normally vertical power of rising from the squat can be applied diagonally through the contact
point.

I hope this is some help to all of you out there who feel confused as to what traditional eastern martial arts (particularly the so called internal arts of China)
were trying to train when they invented all those strange postures. They only wanted to train vertical power (squats), but they wanted to be able to apply
that power to conflicts that arise horizontally ( conflicts with something around you, not above you or on your shoulders like Björnsson's log).

[curenado]

Dragon gong fu. The low stances, high kicks and general goal of "learning to ride the wind" - are the "for dummies" version that leads toward what it seems you're describing. Tiger doesn't seem as much on the surface, but there is a lot of all-focus in horizontal strike power. Rooting and horse are another case where vertical is as much or more than horizontal.

[Rojcewicz]

Dragon gong fu. The low stances, high kicks and general goal of "learning to ride the wind" - are the "for dummies" version that leads toward what it seems you're describing. Tiger doesn't seem as much on the surface, but there is a lot of all-focus in horizontal strike power. Rooting and horse are another case where vertical is as much or more than horizontal.

What I'm saying is that the use of vertical power as the primary power of all actions is not specific to any style, but that it is simply superior to horizontal power (the power that can be generated when trying to move any part of the body horizontally) and that the goal of martial art movement should be to integrate a vertical action into every horizontal action, that vertical power should replace horizontal power as much as is possible without destroying horizontal power all together. When one throws a punch, one should make the punch an extension of rising from a squat, but without totally reducing the horizontal movement, otherwise your fist wont meet your target in space. I recommend trying it out. A straight punch is a horizontal movement, squatting and rising from a squat is a vertical movement, if you can mix the two appropriately then, when you hit, your opponent will feel that they are being driven off the ground by an unstoppable force.

[bawang]

lol @ obviously muscular tai chi teachers telling their students not to lift weights and do silk reeling for cosmic strength

[SPJ]

There are big 3 things mixed up here.

1 straight vs lateral. zhi jin dui heng jin.

If the opponent uses straight energy, we use lateral one to neutralize it.

If the opponent uses lateral energy, we use straight one to neutralize it.

It is like a spear vs a shield. Back and forth.

2 rising vs sinking (up and down) energy

Downward energy is more important than rising one.

3 expanding vs shrinking (exploding vs imploding) energy

Peng is upward, forward, downward and expanding energy.

Huan yuan is a mixture of all of the above. It is circular and centering around dan tian. It is exploding and imploding.

Meaning we have to practice one energy at a time.

Then we mix 2, then 3 then all.

There.

[Rojcewicz]

There are big 3 things mixed up here.

1 straight vs lateral. zhi jin dui heng jin.

If the opponent uses straight energy, we use lateral one to neutralize it.

If the opponent uses lateral energy, we use straight one to neutralize it.

It is like a spear vs a shield. Back and forth.

2 rising vs sinking (up and down) energy

Downward energy is more important than rising one.

3 expanding vs shrinking (exploding vs imploding) energy

Peng is upward, forward, downward and expanding energy.

Huan yuan is a mixture of all of the above. It is circular and centering around dan tian. It is exploding and imploding.

Meaning we have to practice one energy at a time.

Then we mix 2, then 3 then all.

There.

Do you think you've clarified anything? Nothing you've said can be put into practice, because your words deal largely in abstraction and offer no advice in the way of practical training method. Exploding and imploding? Unless your body is stuffed with TNT its not going to be exploding. When you use your arms, no matter the motion, their power is primarily horizontal (they can move through space horizontally with great freedom at many angles) whatever vertical power they have is derived from the vertical power of the torso which is itself deriving vertical power through the legs (vertical power being the power to go up and to stay up, which is necessarily paired with being able to go down and to be lower). The action of the arms alone can be gentle or quite forceful, depending on the speed and intent of the arms action, but whatever power the arms have to push through, penetrate, or control something is derived from the vertical power of the body. The vertical power of a body when standing is exponentially greater than its horizontal power. What I want to open for discussion with anyone who is touched by the topic, is how can we train to more effectively apply the bodies vertical power to horizontal conflicts?
What are the necessary changes that need to happen in the way we are already training? What is your experience of the primacy of vertical power? After all, who that ever went to school didn't wear a backpack, often heavy, on their shoulders day in day out? Could you imagine having to carry that heavy backpack in your arms all day?