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Thread: TWC SLT details _1

  1. #1
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    TWC SLT details _1

    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
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    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post

    I like the video Phil.Its very well explained however,i personally don;t like using a high Tan to block strikes to the head,I feel that is the wrong tool for the job.Also,the structure of the Tan is weak when using against a circular strike it would be better to use Sickle hand from Chum Kiu or bil Sao or Fok Sao which I think has a better structure... just my opinion..I really like the video you have some good information...

    Thanks for sharing,

    peace
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  3. #3
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    I like the video Phil.Its very well explained however,i personally don;t like using a high Tan to block strikes to the head,I feel that is the wrong tool for the job.Also,the structure of the Tan is weak when using against a circular strike it would be better to use Sickle hand from Chum Kiu or bil Sao or Fok Sao which I think has a better structure... just my opinion..I really like the video you have some good information...

    Thanks for sharing,

    peace
    If you block a high kick the the head you'd need a high tan. But the bottom line is that I've sucessfully used a high tan when I was kick boxing. Our students that compete in full contact events use it. If it works in a fight why not use it?
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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    Theory is very important in Wing Chun. But theories should be tested real time. I want to figure out what really works under pressure. I don't mean with your training partners. I mean against someone from another style who is really trying to hurt you.
    Here's a high tan. http://youtu.be/F33HiBSCaAw
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    ...i personally don;t like using a high Tan to block strikes to the head, I feel that is the wrong tool for the job. Also,the structure of the Tan is weak when using against a circular strike it...
    I disagree completely. Tan, with the right energy behind it, correct timing (obviously), and proper body structure and angle provide the Tan with everything it needs to do its job and do it well.
    I'm not sure what a 'sickle hand' is, but a Bil sao also works very well.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I want to figure out what really works under pressure. I don't mean with your training partners. I mean against someone from another style who is really trying to hurt you.
    Totally agree Phil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Here's a high tan. http://youtu.be/F33HiBSCaAw
    Though, to be fair, in this example (a quan sao)...the Tan is in more of a secondary roll...while the elbow of the bong sao is the workhorse.

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    The elbow should never make contact. Both the Tan and Bong make contact.
    http://youtu.be/Zp4NQLntNlQ
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    If you block a high kick the the head you'd need a high tan. But the bottom line is that I've sucessfully used a high tan when I was kick boxing. Our students that compete in full contact events use it. If it works in a fight why not use it?
    I never said it would not work.You already proved that it does work,but I think tan would be better used as a mid level block. When you use the Tan to to protect the head you have to raise up your elbow and floats your energy. IMO the tan would be better used as a foreword energy fingers pointing not to the sky like you do, but to the opponents throat. this way you can keep your elbow down which makes it hard for someone to up root you and get under your bridge. I would use Bil sao,Fok sao instead of the Tan. I feel Tan structure gets weaker when you use it to protect the head.

    As far as using the Tan to block kicks. I don't use Tan to block kicks. I use Gan Sao,or qwuan sao. Tan by it self I feel is not a good hand to use for the same reason as using to protect the head. If you use tan sao agaisnt a very powerful kick you will have a broken arm. Think about it, how can an arm which is much weaker then the leg with stand the force of a kick that has more mass and bone density then the arm?Now having said all that, I KNOW it works for you other wise I'm sure you would not use it,but there are more ways to skin a cat. experiment and see what works best and what makes more sense.

    peace,

    Mike
    Last edited by stonecrusher69; 02-23-2015 at 08:39 AM. Reason: add more info
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  10. #10
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    Kwan Sao has a Tan and a Bong that means you do use a Tan to block kicks. Btw, have you ever competed?
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    I never said it would not work.You already proved that it does work,but I think tan would be better used as a mid level block. When you use the Tan to to protect the head you have to raise up your elbow and floats your energy. IMO the tan would be better used as a foreword energy fingers pointing not to the sky like you do, but to the opponents throat. this way you can keep your elbow down which makes it hard for someone to up root you and get under your bridge. I would use Bil sao,Fok sao instead of the Tan. I feel Tan structure gets weaker when you use it to protect the head.

    As far as using the Tan to block kicks. I don't use Tan to block kicks. I use Gan Sao,or qwuan sao. Tan by it self I feel is not a good hand to use for the same reason as using to protect the head. If you use tan sao agaisnt a very powerful kick you will have a broken arm. Think about it, how can an arm which is much weaker then the leg with stand the force of a kick that has more mass and bone density then the arm?Now having said all that, I KNOW it works for you other wise I'm sure you would not use it,but there are more ways to skin a cat. experiment and see what works best and what makes more sense.

    peace,
    Mike
    I can make some vids of students throwing full power round kicks to the head for you. The defender will use a Kwan Sao which uses a high Tan.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  12. #12
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    As far as using the Tan to block kicks. I don't use Tan to block kicks. I use Gan Sao,or qwuan sao. Tan by it self I feel is not a good hand to use for the same reason as using to protect the head. If you use tan sao agaisnt a very powerful kick you will have a broken arm. Think about it, how can an arm which is much weaker then the leg with stand the force of a kick that has more mass and bone density then the arm?Now having said all that, I KNOW it works for you other wise I'm sure you would not use it,but there are more ways to skin a cat. experiment and see what works best and what makes more sense.
    The arguments you use against tan sao apply equally to gan sao where kicks are concerned. Better to block with the leg than with a gan against a lower kick for reasons you mentioned. Gan leaves your head open to a follow up strike or kick as well. Kickboxers would love you dropping a hand to block a thigh kick.

    Gan doesn't apply to a head kick, assuming we are talking about the same thing.

    Two arm blocks are better than one against kicks (Quan/Kan) - which is actually what Phil advocates above ... assuming you see the kick coming early enough. If not, anything's probably better than blocking it with your jaw or temple.

    Many MMA fighters seem to manage well enough with boxing or MT type head covers. There's a Genki Sudo highlight clip where he stops a roundhouse to the head with a boxing cover and counterstrikes with a cross - poetry in motion.
    Last edited by anerlich; 02-23-2015 at 10:34 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I can make some vids of students throwing full power round kicks to the head for you. The defender will use a Kwan Sao which uses a high Tan.

    Kwan sao is fine for kicks because your using two hands instead of a single Tan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    The arguments you use against tan sao apply equally to gan sao where kicks are concerned. Better to block with the leg than with a gan against a lower kick for reasons you mentioned. Gan leaves your head open to a follow up strike or kick as well. Kickboxers would love you dropping a hand to block a thigh kick.

    Gan doesn't apply to a head kick, assuming we are talking about the same thing.

    Two arm blocks are better than one against kicks (Quan/Kan) - which is actually what Phil advocates above ... assuming you see the kick coming early enough. If not, anything's probably better than blocking it with your jaw or temple.

    Many MMA fighters seem to manage well enough with boxing or MT type head covers. There's a Genki Sudo highlight clip where he stops a roundhouse to the head with a boxing cover and counterstrikes with a cross - poetry in motion.
    I agree using your leg is better then using your hands for a low line kick so you can keep your hands up.
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    The elbow should never make contact. Both the Tan and Bong make contact.
    http://youtu.be/Zp4NQLntNlQ
    I like that video. Nice energy. Cool shot at the end with all the kids too.

    Yeah the standard MMA responses tend to be cover and fire back on the same side because they are open when retracting. It's simple and works. But there is some damage absorption potential, as well as the need to overcome momentum.

    The standard wing chun response gives you control over space and opponent's center and you have momentum on your side so should be a step up when trained up correctly.

    Turning out to be a good discussion about kicks. And yes nice absolutely correct detail about the elbow - thanks Phil!

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