Shaolin Jinnaluo War Cult
There's no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he's talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn't knock you out.....Originally Posted by Brat
You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!
Member
I learned to fight in one of the toughest high schools I've ever seen years before I took a single martial arts class so I know what will work and what wont. In my school there was no question of "Who is the toughest guy?" It was about your place on the social/political scale and who you ran afoul of. Lots of guys who were the "big shots" regularly got rolled by an ambush which put them into traction for a few weeks. In their absence some other dude would take over. Then maybe he'd ambush that guy once he recovered.
One of the biggest problems with sparring and tourneys is that you get to prepare for them and you know they are coming. Real brawls happen when they happen and you're not stretched out and might not be wearing clothes conducive to that sort of thing. You might be all stuffed up with a head cold who knows? When I said generic kickboxing I just meant the dancing and slapping that goes on in point fights. Trust me I've done 5 rounds of Muay Thai in an arena with lights and the freaky music. Real fights last 10-15 seconds.
The Muhammed Ali type of dancing around is ****ty footwork to prepare for a real fight. Most of the time it's gonna be infighting and in that situation I'll take a good solid stance to the Tae Bo any day of the week. If you've got the maneuverability and stamina to prance then you've probably equally got the chance to turn tail and get the hell out of there which is the smarter option.
Member
I'm sorry to disagree but sparring in my opinion wont really help you much in a real fight at least not to the extent that the common wisdom suggests. You learn fighting by fighting for real that's the way it is. Theory is garbage. Most fights I've seen and been in have begun with a blitz of some sort. Two guys talking smack and then one finally gets too riled and piles into another. There's not enough time to get into a kickboxing stance and all your kickboxing moves are worthless when you get shoved against a wall. A kickboxing ring or mat is free of debris. In the real world there's **** laying all over the place - towels, book bags, trash and you can and will trip over them. And there's people standing around who probably don't have the reflexes to shoot out of the way should you make a hasty move. Remember the days on the schoolyard when one kid kneels behind you and you get shoved backward? Same principle.
The upside to this is that I've met few people who could actually throw a really good punch. Muay Thai boxers are notorious for this because they hold their guards too high and rely upon their elbows, knees, and kicks. Blindsides happen but I've seen them lots less than the face to face fights. More than one guy? Get the **** out of there! With a blindside sucker punch, usually those guys are the hardest hitters of all and no matter how much sparring and absorbing blows you've done it's lights out. 90% of the martial arts I know I probably would never use in a real encounter and I haven't.
If I see an opening (assuming I have time) I'll go for it. Might be grappling might be a low shin kick or a foot stomp. But the techniques I've relied upon in the past in the real deal have been simple stuff. Nothing that's gonna put me up there with Seven Segal or Jean Claude van Damme at the box office. Also I don't want anyone to get the impression that I am marketing myself as some sort of bad ass. I have lost more fights than I have ever won if you can even win a real one. I have been in 3 fights in the past 25 years. One was the one I posted earlier, another was against some kitchen manager at a TGI Fridays who had a "Black Belt" in attitude and potty mouth fu and not much else. The third was against a mentally unstable kid in the seat of a school bus. Lots more back in the school days.
The last person anyone wants to fight, me included is someone who can and will do you harm. Going up against an equal is for the ring where you've got a soft mat and a referee.
Last edited by Brat; 03-23-2015 at 09:36 PM.
Banned
I can only imagine what most who read your reports think. Actually I know what they think.
Brat, thanks for sharing your experience's. This one gives gold!
Ill add that aside from inside tight bars. Ive never encountered much in the way of anything restricting foot movement, Chairs being the most common in my experience. Snow/ice can be a problem. Thankfully never had any trouble in snow. They are considerations but for me, seldom presented.
If someone does not go down after the first one to a couple of shots. Now you will be fighting. Prior, one assaults the other. This is how it really goes down. In your face. I know, everyone says, it wont happen to me. Yes it will. There are guy so gifted at talking themselves right into your concentration and personal space you never see it coming. Brats right about sucker punchers dropping people. They got a big punch and they understand how to get you with it before you do anything. Again, many will believe they will never get that close to me. I've seen different. Its happened to me. He is close enough to touch you and moves first, good luck. If he has sucked you into his world you don't stand a chance at stopping it period. Best you got is as Kellen suggest. Learn to take a shot. Works better when you are younger. Works better if the guy punching does not have a knock out shot.
It would be much better if guys understood, knew and agreed this will be a fight. Then you can control the range you like the best if you are able. Like that San Soo clip. It was agreed on first.
Also, most guys glue to the floor. They move almost not at all. Plus almost everyone keeps their hands down. Cops are trained to write close to their chest or hold one or both hands in fornt of their chest while interviewing and assessing a suspect. Why? Most people head hunt. If his hands are chest high he stands a far greater chance or taking the shot on the arms. He does not have to move them as far. He can probably do it. Like Vic Moore could have to Lee if his hands were up. I think we all agree Moore was really fast. But he failed and had prior warning.
Frequently a guy will push, hands go back down and the hold ground again. It is an instinctual response and reconditioned by inside beliefs you will look a coward should you back up. Put you hands up and all that. We train one way only so long and we spend the rest of the day un-training what we try to achieve. Most of us do not walk around primed for a fight. It is for most people an unrealistic goal. We simply do not live that way. We go to work and be nice people. We hold doors and say hello. We allow people into our personal space all day long. At stores, banks, gyms. The thing we want to avoid in a confrontation we train ourselves to do single day to do. It is a unfortunate truth for the vast majority of us. We simply do not go around looking to have a fight or knock another out. Those guys that do probably just got out of jail for having done so a few months prior, if caught. Most guys don't get caught. It almost never happens someone will intervene on your behalf. Even if they want to, things can go from looking normal to over in a flash. How many of us chased down the last guy that decked someone? I'd suggest few the post here or anyplace. It is not the normal response. At best they call the cops and ask for a ambulance.
Life can go bad fast. I choose not to live that way anymore. Primed. Ready for it. It will come to you if that's what you want.
Last edited by boxerbilly; 03-24-2015 at 05:00 PM.
Banned
That begs the question. If we know that and anyone that has watch fights, normal not agreed on fights were guys match up on some dirt patch and hurt one another. But the kind you'll likely find your self in. Guy in your face. Knowing what is probable. How do you respond? What do you do? How do you make your art fit that? I posted some vids of wing chun guys doing rather well and better in many case going up against karate guys and I suspect they could do as well against **** near anyone that stays on their feet. But they knew when the fight was starting. This is the least of our worries as it seldom will happen that way. There also is a good chance if you back down it ends before blows.
How do you make your art work before it turns into a fight if you are lucky enough to take a shot and get distance or grab and hold. Which may take it to the ground. Are you ready for that? Life sure can suck when you look at the probable instead of what you wish or believe will happen. The only time I ever made a kick work was when I kicked first. Front kicks. I once threw a round kick on a rather big guy and almost ended up on may ass doing so. I never threw another again.
Ive only ever blocked punches in things that managed to become fights with my face and body. I wont count stupid stuff. I mean guys really wanting to put me out. I'll admit I suck at that. Are you prepared to be honest with yourself? In that one clip I posted of that Tai Chi guy that managed a really nice wrist or arm throw on a crowed train. If he did not make that move first he probably could have never pulled it off.
So, is that what we have? We have to move first? We have to become the thing we disdain? I suggest so. And then I suggest you turn and run away.
I suggest unless you are training to enter sanctioned fights, once you under stand the likely and the bad things you will probably have to do. I suggest you find other reasons to train. That being for slow learners like myself. Not you fellows more mentally mature than the rest of us. Find another reason. And stay out of the stupid places all this stuff normally happens. Keep your mouth shut . Something I really had to work on. It ain't worth it.
I'm your Huckleberry
I don't know much about him, although I did hear recently of some challenges made to Mr. Carruthers.
One of the challengers was(supposedly) my former instructor Marc McFann. Another was Rick Young. Both are long-time Guro Dan Inosanto students. Leads me to believe some type of disrespect toward Guro Dan.
Just hearsay, though. I'm no longer in the loop, and last I heard Sifu McFann was retired.
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
Banned
It really does not matter. It's like saying Emin Boztepe sucks because Bas Rutten shows up and said, you been talking about me we can settle it right here. He did. With words. Emin may in fact know more than Bas but that does not mean he can beat Bas. It's just not fair but that's how it works.
I think if Tommy moves first almost anyone is going to have problems. As Jimbo pointed out, those being demos and his speed and flow will be off if he was really laying into someone. But he puts those fingers in your eyes and my money says you're going down.
So in most of the situations we are likely to actually face it becomes like the old west. Funny, it appears that's the case even if you are in China. 2 guys face each other. Psych on one another and lets see who has the fastest draw and the bigger round. For average, normal people it tends to be the guy that moves first and lands first. You guys with an over abundance of neuropeptide Y don't react the way most of us do. It may tip the scales in your favor. Ace up your sleeve. Most of you that have that wont even know you do. You just don't understand why people do what they do when confronted how they are.
Banned
An example of a BJJ guy making his art fit the scenario. He is actually rather skilled at his set up. Gave the big guy a little harmless shot to get him to change his game plan. Possibly,he short circuited his trigger and created a new response. It played into his strengths. He may not have understood what he did .I've seen a longer version. Just a bit more trash talk coming from the kid. The guy kept saying take a shot. The kid kept telling him you are stupid. You want me to hit you with your hands down? He obviously understands buddy, you are not that fast. Seeing it we would assume that the kid started it. We may be wrong in that assumption. He may simply had stood his ground on an issue he had every right to? I really don't know. I suspect we will see a lot more things going this way. It all ready is.
And I am no bjj guy but I am not foolish enough to think it wont work in the street. It has is strengths. In this particular instance it was possibly the best option. In a crowd? Maybe not. In many ways, this method can potentially save both parties from any real harm to either person. The extra head shots could have been overkill. Lots of anger present. People have trouble keeping that in check once it goes to action. Are you prepared for something like that? I for one am not !
In the end. Aside from hurt pride and minor scuffs and dings. Everyone went away essentially unharmed. Teeth in there heads. No stitches needed. No heads cracking the pavement causing death. It did kind of look like the kid may have wacked his head jerking the guy back into position. A thing to consider and guard against if you train bjj. Figure a way to not smack your head. Just a consideration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq7zdNdyFmY
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The hands are the best weapons in these instances. My xingyi teacher taught me to hold the lead hand in front of the head because that would negate the possibility of a straight punch to the face. Both hands are along the body's center line to guard the upper and lower gates. Common in Wing Chun also You can do this without really indicating that you are preparing for an offensive while moving backwards or to the side to maintain distance. One of the bad things about modern sparring is that in most kickboxing (Muay Thai included) they teach you to absorb blows with your arms and legs. With the legs its ok but the arms, without big fluffy gloves are ill prepared to absorb blows. If his fist collides with yours it's gonna hurt! Also you aren't going to win any fight by simply absorbing blows from your opponent.
I've got lot's of old books in my library written by old school military and street boxers. These dudes were in real fights more often than not. Every single one of them uses a block to trap the arm (though not necessarily by grabbing) and then a counter. You don't see boxers doing this nowadays. A boxer's best weapon is ducking the blow but if the dude bum rushes you and takes it to grappling the boxing is finished. In xingyi my teacher taught me to immobilize the attacking limb while simultaneously counter attacking. One thing that worked really well for me is kneeing the legs especially around the knee. This of course is done at point blank range when you and the opponent are shoulder to shoulder. They'll teach you that in Muay Thai but if you're not careful a ref can foul you in a real match. I used it in HS several times as well as a low round kick to the side of the knee which folds the leg and drives the dude to the floor.
The only thing in grappling that will help you is to be a darn good wrestler and by that I mean the kind that can keep it on the feet. BJJ guys tend to suck at this because they instinctively favor the ground. But trust me the ground outside your gym is not your friend. If you go down use your BJJ to get yourself on top. No one I have ever seen in real life ever won from the bottom.
You are right high kicks are dangerous. It's mostly because people generally don't practice kicking with a shoe on which is much different than kicking barefooted depending on what your sole is made of. I've seen a some high kicks used as follow up moves to a successful punch but they are too slow to be used as a primary attack. However for low kicks a shoe is heavy armor and even a rubber athletic shoe sole can cause considerable damage to an opponent as well as provide protection to your foot. I have had success with a sweeping kick to the shin while advancing and with a hard soled shoe this can be pretty devastating. Best used when a guy is rushing towards you if you can't move backwards.
Member
Monkey Kung Fu will work in the streets if the practitioner will adapt it to the situation BUT as in all martial arts that requires a solid knowledge of what can happen in a real fight. You and I both have that knowledge and experience. As I said before the biggest detriment to BJJ guys is that they are comfortable on the ground. It's where they like to fight. Long before I had a lovely wife and two wonderful children at home to think about I treasured mobility in a street encounter if for no other reason than to high tail it if the need arose. When you go to the ground you lose that advantage. Concrete grappling is different from mat and that goes without needed explanation. Early BJJ victories by Royce inc. most of the time involved dudes with little or zero knowledge of grappling or at least non "you pin you win" mindset. A BJJ dude who goes down with a good HS or college wrestler can have their hands full as in my experience the latter usually has some street cred somewhere along the way.
Strangely the most frightening part of the encounter for me is the few seconds before it actually happens. Once the physical starts I am kind of in the zone so to speak. I am not angry I just do what I do. Sometimes it works. Leading up to that I get the weak knees, losing the voice, trembling, etc... It all disappears once the action starts for some reason.
Banned
It was a long time ago. I was 32 my last time and I'm glad I changed.
One thing that is glaringly apparent to me that can be an advantage is on the ground the action slows. Unless a guy mounts and pounds. That looks pretty fast.
I wrestled but it was so long ago. It never went to the ground elsewhere for me. But, I think with the advent of UFC we have seen and will continue to see that happen on the streets. People mimic what they see on tv. Or youtube nowadays Some will and wrongly so, believe some guy cant pick some of that stuff up through watching and not worry about it.
If I got taken down by anyone like that. My money is on that guy! If the guy is as big as I think and as strong as that other poster ( sorry I sometimes have trouble with names at first.) in the Bawangs thread with the huge weight for reps bench. My money is on that guy even if he knows next to nothing. I know and understand my limits now.
Member
The ground is always an option and if you're dealing with an especially big dude it might be the only way to beat him. Unless they've had some wrestling training of some sort most big guys lose it on the ground. At least that has been my experience. You are right people can pick up ground fighting moves from videos and put them to use. Before I took Judo at college I bought the whole set of Marco Ruas Panther tapes. That is the only set of tapes that I pretty much worked the whole way through. Well some of the stuff like the striking tape (which was some pretty basic Muay Thai) I didn't. I have to say that it was some pretty effective street grappling. Marco had some training in Greco Roman wrestling so much of it was right up my alley. I actually used a couple of his moves to take down and subdue that azzwad manager at T.G.I. Fridays but that guy was a rube.
You've gotta have some good takedown skills to get them down because they've got reach and if you're not fast enough they can end up on top of you and then you'll be doing some Royce Gracie on the pavement with a gigantic dude on top. Not a position I would want to be in. Yeah after the UFCs it was common to see guys at parties doing the whole BJJ thing. But even with practice there's lots of sh it they won't know unless they've had some proper grappling training.
Banned
No one wants to get thrown onto the ground by a Greco Roman wrestler. It might kill you.
Brat, maybe we should continue this discussion in a more appropriate sub- forum? This is a kung fu one. And we have swayed off the topic perhaps to much? I have noticed Gene is very organized in his forum. I like a mess. I can find things easy that way. But, it is his house.
Registered User
10 Oz gloves are big and fluffy and you can get fouled in Muay Thai from kneeing the 'legs around the knee'. Righty-o... Thought you trained and fought in Thailand Brat? (stadiums, no less) Or am I mixing you up with the other dude? because it seems like you two are the same person talking back and forth to himself. Go on with your mid-90s bad self though. Mildly entertaining.
Registered User
lol i did wonder too, i miss trolls like this, I miss knifefighter calling them on their bull more though
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