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Thread: Tommy Carruthers

  1. #1

    Tommy Carruthers

    Crap or good? Serious trainer or a dumb punk ? Dangerous or a cry baby because Young showed upped and challenged him and he did not want to fight. I would not want to fight Young either by the way.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdvIAYGRUus

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLiKAI4Jfy4

  2. #2
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    He looks very fast.

    It's hard to tell from what's out there, but the way he throws his technique makes me wonder if he's not just reinforced those neuromuscular pathways. He's pulling everything. I wonder if he's hit anyone for real.

  3. #3
    He is very fast. Some of it looks like there is good power too. He does not believe in free sparring. Certain sparring drills I think he does. I forget why he scarped sparring from his teaching but I think he mentioned it tends to develop bad habits. As pulling can, I'd suggest.

  4. #4
    It matters little to me a guy backs down. That's life. Sometimes you know, I can't take this guy. It's not like he entered a competition. I forget the beef. He may have said things about the Inosanto school of taught and got Young a bit miffed. What ever else transpired, Tommy got out of it. Sign of an intelligent man. Tactically smart. Or call him a *****. Up to your beliefs and experiences.

  5. #5
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    If he truly dopes not believe in free fighting/sparring then that speaks volumes.
    The very core, the essence of JKD IS free sparring/fighting.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #6
    I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.
    Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
    That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
    That is just silly.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #8
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    Targets, real targets in H2H move.

    This kind of demonstration has purpose in showing the textbook version of a technique.
    But if you don't move beyond that, it's all useless because none of it will work at all in an actual scenario.

    This is not the kind of thing you can trot out at a later date looking for acceptance as a valid means of combative development or training.

    If it does not move up to realism and application in realistic scenarios and stays with the "may as well be a bob" type attacks, then it's likely not as serviceable as it is promoted to be.

    Speed is easy to get with technique when the target never moves.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.
    The problem with sparring in lots of styles nowadays is that you'll see some guy doing all sorts of traditional forms and stances but when it comes time to spar out comes the generic kickboxing. And who's gonna win in such a fight? The best kick boxer of course. Of course I trained in Muay Thai which is essentially kickboxing but when I began practicing xingyi (which in my opinion has very superior footwork WHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY) we did nothing but prearranged drills which included the an shen pao two man form which is more free but still scripted in a sense. With lots of practice in the aforementioned pulling it out spontaneously isn't a chore.

    Also people tend to fight just like they spar. Very seldom in real life have I seen two people "square off" which is how sparring begins. People are cowards and they'll try to hit you with a surprise blitz when you are distracted or aren't paying attention (the sucker punch). I've seen it too much. I know of two guys who were black belts and each had lots of sparring experience and success in tourneys who respectively got stomped by some dudes who were not nearly as skilled. The fights started as I described and they had like a "holy ****, this ain't how it's supposed to start" mentality at least at a subliminal level and in one guys case it caused a brief shutdown that gave his opponent all the time he needed.

    My two of my teachers (Taekkyon and xingyi) trained that you should be able to respond to an attack whether it be squared off of hands down at your sides. One time in HS I had a couple of guys pin me against the locker and start wailing on me. I tried to get away by rolling against the lockers but they just followed me and I ended up getting the brunt of the attack (multiple opponents aren't cool).

    Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6'3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn't know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.

    No amount of sparring in the dojang could have prepared me for that. But as I later reflected on the incident lots of previous ones like the one I mentioned came to mind.

  10. #10
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    There is only kick, punch, throw and lock.
    Expecting to see action movie stuff in a fight is..well, that's the viewers problem.

    In any tcma there is basic kick, punch, throws and locks and that's what is used in a situation.

    Fancy stances etc have no real place in anything outside of stylistic dueling.

    There is no such thing as "generic" kickboxing". Kickboxing with throws an locks is what Traditional chinese martial art is.

    If someone is trying to sell you on only the fancy stuff like tornado kicks is "the realz" then they are pulling your leg or talking sh!t.

    Not that those things aren't used. Because they are. There are multiple examples of UFC guys even pulling obscure moves out of the the toolbag. They do lend to the surprise factor.

    The main point is that if you don't move beyond smacking a bag or demonstrating on a dude who just stands there, then you aren't likely to be developing the ability to actually apply the martial arts in the self.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #11
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    I have no issues (nor any reason to have any) with Tommy Carruthers, but here are a few personal observations.

    It's fairly easy for someone with some natural athletic ability to demonstrate impressive-looking speed combinations when the 'opponent' is just standing there. Even supposing a real opponent just stood there; the way the combination is demo'd wouldn't work that way. Making real contact changes everything. The opponent's body reacting to that contact changes everything, such as changes in body position, what opens up/becomes closed off, etc. It affects the sheer speed of your strikes, too. And that's if the opponent were to just stand there and allow you to strike him.

    In truth, nobody just stands there in awe. Not if you're forced into a position to have to fight them. Doing only sparring drills but not real sparring will never teach you what you can make work, and how/when something works. No matter how close to 'real' the drills are. Sparring drills should lead up to sparring, not replace it. Sparring may not be the only important aspect, but it's essential to learn to deal with others who aren't cooperating with you and trying to get you, too.

    The Hung Gar master I mentioned in the Vic Moore/Bruce Lee thread had the fastest kicks I've seen or faced, including "Superfoot" Wallace's, though the HG master didn't deliver his kicks in the same manner. When he kicked people in sparring, he was still lightning fast and explosive, but only from floor into the target. His snap-back was not as fast as when kicking air. Because the energy was spent going into the target. Same idea. If Carruthers was actually making penetrating contact with those punches, it would change the nature of his punching speed.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-23-2015 at 10:02 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
    That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
    That is just silly.

    I could not answer that. I really don't know why he feels that way and it is coming second hand from a memory that could be off a bit with the accuracy but I'm really sure he said that.

    My buddy I mentioned in a PM to you. In London, Lt. Col. Grossman gave a seminar ( he wrote " On Killing" ) flat out told him sportive combative practice is needed because it is as close to real H2H as we can get. Looking at it from a point of preparing one to be able to handle the stress of a similar situation.

    Grossmans book was ( and still is ) an eye opening book for its time. Most of his research has been plastered all over the web in rewritten form that reading it now could be redundant.

  13. #13
    I looked briefly and could not find the clip on youtube. It may have never been on youtube. I did find this and perhaps this is the sort of stuff he mentioned? Just a guess. I don't have time to search in depth for it at present. Sorry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmfKTnvOUJw

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=
    Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6'3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn't know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.

    .[/QUOTE]


    Smart man.

  15. #15
    Got home and searched for it a good amount. I can not find it but I did find this thread. I'm not reading through it but on the google search some one made a comment he does not spar. This stuff goes back to 2007. It may have been that long ago I saw the documentary? Anyway, for those that want to know more there may be some students of his posting in that thread.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=88191

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