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Thread: Limb destruction

  1. #16
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    Don't confuse instructional with demo.

    Instructional are done slow and with a complaint partner because you are teaching all aspects of the technique.
    That is not a demo.
    A demo is a demonstration of how the techniques works and looks and as such, it should be done in the most realistic way possible.

    A demonstration of boxing or wrestling or any other full contact MA is done how?
    Exactly.

    An instructional is, of course, done differently.

    Now, IF they above was an instructional, that is different BUT if it was, that is a whole other can of worms...
    Psalms 144:1
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Don't confuse instructional with demo.

    Instructional are done slow and with a complaint partner because you are teaching all aspects of the technique.
    That is not a demo.
    A demo is a demonstration of how the techniques works and looks and as such, it should be done in the most realistic way possible.

    A demonstration of boxing or wrestling or any other full contact MA is done how?
    Exactly.

    An instructional is, of course, done differently.

    Now, IF they above was an instructional, that is different BUT if it was, that is a whole other can of worms...
    I never heard a wrestling teacher say "I'm going to do an instructional now on a spladle." Nor at my first CMA school which sparred heavily, nor at the MMA school I visited a number of times my friends train at, nor anywhere else.

    So however you cut it, it's just a demonstration with a compliant partner. Search youtube for any technique name and the word "Demo" and you'll see just as many if not more fully compliant situations. So I think the word has both meanings, and my experience and youtube disagree with your definition.

    Here's a gracie BJJ black belt showing "demos" with a compliant partner:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j28Hp0ADafM

    You should probably stick to the "I don't think OP's move is effective" argument instead

  3. #18
    It was a nice little instructional clip. Nothing major. I would have liked to see discussion and demo about not chasing hands with limb destruction and a sense of how centerline awareness and intent will dictate the proper timeframe for that. I mean striking a wu hand that is not between you and your opponents center is probably not that great of an idea. But it was a real short clip, and I don't see an abundance of better ones up handling that, so good job stonecrusher. For sure sink that bridge on your way across.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I never heard a wrestling teacher say "I'm going to do an instructional now on a spladle." Nor at my first CMA school which sparred heavily, nor at the MMA school I visited a number of times my friends train at, nor anywhere else.

    So however you cut it, it's just a demonstration with a compliant partner. Search youtube for any technique name and the word "Demo" and you'll see just as many if not more fully compliant situations. So I think the word has both meanings, and my experience and youtube disagree with your definition.

    Here's a gracie BJJ black belt showing "demos" with a compliant partner:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j28Hp0ADafM

    You should probably stick to the "I don't think OP's move is effective" argument instead
    True, we do tend to use the words interchangeably, probably why the MA are in such a sorry state as they are.

    Yeah, that clip sucked too.
    No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.
    You are, of course, free to feel otherwise.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #20
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    Or you can demo like this...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.
    You are, of course, free to feel otherwise.
    I think it's a bit like lifting the bar, eh? You wouldn't teach a total beginner to squat 300 pounds, you would first do it with nothing to get their form right.

    Or like learning words in a language. You can jump in with pimsleur method and learn whole sentences at a time, but you'll never develop mastery (a bit like a pure brawler who learns no technique could be good, but will hit a threshold).
    Learning the meaning of each word (posture/technique) at a time, and sentence structures (how to put postures/techniques together coherently) is like learning from a compliant or semi-compliant "demo."

    A lot of language learners know all the words/meaning involved, but when someone actually natively speaks that language, they have no idea what any of it means because they've never heard it or been to that country.

    Like that, a demo can serve to familiarize with the language and form involved.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

    Of course once pressure is applied, you might have a bit too much weight on the rack and squat slightly off balanced and have to get feedback to fix it. Or that pressure might be travelling to that country and talking with native speakers, you might speak horribly jumbled, but you have a foundation to build on.

    Then we have demo's like OPs, which are strange sounding sentences. They seem to work when written (demoed), but we don't have evidence anyone actually speaks them (in real scenarios).

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Or you can demo like this...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs
    The irony of you posting this is manyfold.

    1) Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls. I feel like this demo is worse than OP's because this type of training might actually mislead someone into thinking their moves are going to work in a real environment if all their partners just buckle and don't strike back the entire time.


    2) If you watch closely at this time in the video you'll see the move that OP posted (at least a better application of it) https://youtu.be/S3drZ6bURUs?t=1m9s
    Last edited by Matthew; 04-07-2015 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Bad at spelling

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I think it's a bit like lifting the bar, eh? You wouldn't teach a total beginner to squat 300 pounds, you would first do it with nothing to get their form right.

    Or like learning words in a language. You can jump in with pimsleur method and learn whole sentences at a time, but you'll never develop mastery (a bit like a pure brawler who learns no technique could be good, but will hit a threshold).
    Learning the meaning of each word (posture/technique) at a time, and sentence structures (how to put postures/techniques together coherently) is like learning from a compliant or semi-compliant "demo."

    A lot of language learners know all the words/meaning involved, but when someone actually natively speaks that language, they have no idea what any of it means because they've never heard it or been to that country.

    Like that, a demo can serve to familiarize with the language and form involved.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

    Of course once pressure is applied, you might have a bit too much weight on the rack and squat slightly off balanced and have to get feedback to fix it. Or that pressure might be travelling to that country and talking with native speakers, you might speak horribly jumbled, but you have a foundation to build on.

    Then we have demo's like OPs, which are strange sounding sentences. They seem to work when written (demoed), but we don't have evidence anyone actually speaks them (in real scenarios).



    The irony of you posting this is manyfold.

    1) Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls. I feel like this demo is worse than OP's because this type of training might actually mislead someone into thinking their moves are going to work in a real environment if all their partners just buckle and don't strike back the entire time.


    2) If you watch closely at this time in the video you'll see the move that OP posted (at least a better application of it) https://youtu.be/S3drZ6bURUs?t=1m9s
    I powerlift and how we teach beginners to squat and deadlift with just the day is exactly the same way as the guys do in our gym when competing, ie it looks exactly like it does when demoing as it does in reality

  8. #23
    Thanks again for posting that video Stonecrusher. I was hoping it would bring discussion and argument. Nice thread.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    you cant because it doesn't work, thats my whole point

    So your the appointed expert who determines what and doesn't work...Ok thank you for clearing that up..
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    No matter how you slice it, who does it and why, compliant demos suck.
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Or you can demo like this...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3drZ6bURUs
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Despite their full intensity, some of their moves can't be serious (e.g. guy choking from behind and she just flails her legs and he falls down). Or she knees him and he just over repeatedly falls.
    That might be the first Sanjuro_ronin post that I don't get.

    Looked pretty compliant after each initial attack.

    They demo'd force against force, and somehow the smaller person comes out on top.

    She got body slammed, didn't get the wind knocked out or hit her head, and somehow gets the big guy with a loose arm bar before escaping.

    Then she gets clocked across the chin, falls to the ground, the guy doesn't mount her and beat her face, and somehow she gets out.

    She gets bear hugged and lifted off the ground by a guy whose arms are three times the size of hers, and she breaks his grip by flailing around.

    The guy chokes her against the wall, doesn't slam her head into the wall, and lets her do a chin na escape?

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    That might be the first Sanjuro_ronin post that I don't get.

    Looked pretty compliant after each initial attack.

    They demo'd force against force, and somehow the smaller person comes out on top.

    She got body slammed, didn't get the wind knocked out or hit her head, and somehow gets the big guy with a loose arm bar before escaping.

    Then she gets clocked across the chin, falls to the ground, the guy doesn't mount her and beat her face, and somehow she gets out.

    She gets bear hugged and lifted off the ground by a guy whose arms are three times the size of hers, and she breaks his grip by flailing around.

    The guy chokes her against the wall, doesn't slam her head into the wall, and lets her do a chin na escape?

    Yeah dunno if quality of that vid makes much of a point. Krav demos I've seen like that one are a bit foom foom foom and I don't really support the pull guard, try a crappy armbar then kick a guy in the face until he submits approach. In reality that armbar attempt results in GNP loss.

    the orig vid I thought was an all right basic demo thing. but maybe i'm just not in the mood to criticize some basic bridge hand skills shown in demo mode.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    So your the appointed expert who determines what and doesn't work...Ok thank you for clearing that up..
    you appointed yourself the expert when you placed the video up, if you didnt want people to comment on it you shouldn't have put it up
    im saying in my experience it is a useless technique, but please prove me wrong and show the technique being used against a moving resisting opponent, a simple example of it being used anywhere would do

  13. #28
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    If you guys are perfectly fine with the demo on the OP of this thread, great.
    If you don't see the difference between that clip and the one I posted of the KM demo, that's fine too.

    It's ok to disagree guys, really.

    No biggie.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #29
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    Saw a difference, but didn't love either clip.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Saw a difference, but didn't love either clip.
    Indeed, one of the many reasons I simply don't like demo clips at all.
    Either do it or teach it, but demo?
    Meh...
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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