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Thread: Blocks that work and blocks that don't

  1. #1

    Blocks that work and blocks that don't

    To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
    intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
    evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
    soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
    hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
    covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
    absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

    Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
    It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
    I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
    blocks that you find useless, why?

    Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
    in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
    you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
    with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
    In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
    is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
    real fighting?

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    In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
    schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
    the clean forearm angling over the head.

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    The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
    work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
    your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
    in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
    That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

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    The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
    the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
    if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
    a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
    body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
    and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

    What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #2

    What do you use in sparring/fighting?

    We all know that palm deflections and parries can frequently be seen working in sport fighting, as well as boxing covers, shoulder rolls, and knee checks. TMAs have many more defensive elements than these techniques, what outside the realm of generic defense do you find reliable?

    When I spar with MMA gloves or without gloves, I have often used a double open hand technique, often taught as a block to break an attempted grab. It looks like this, but with open hands and I grab the wrists or sleeves, if they have them.

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    I find this most useful when sparring Kyokushin types, since they like to square up. I don't use it to block punches, but to innate a clinch, or momentarily tie up the hands of a puncher and fire a kick.

    Another, not so common technique I like to block with is simply sinking the weight back, like an empty stance and dropping the elbow down, 12:6 fashion on top of a front kick or side kick. Very painful if you connect with the instep.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  3. #3

    Complex blocking

    Usually, simple is best, but we see in forms a myriad of complex techniques.

    A few examples, I'm not sure of the traditional name, but I call it a crescent block, a soft block that makes a wide arc to the outside of your body, deflecting the punch at your wrist, to supposedly bring the opponents fist around and trap at your hip.

    X blocks, two hands on one, often taught as a knife defense.

    Reinforced blocks, again two hands on one, reportedly against a club like weapon or very powerful opponent. Seems to me far to slow to be of any value.

    Butterfly palms, or roundhouse blocks (mawashi uke) from an Okinawan perspective. The basic version uses two hands to deflect one, I know there are many variations on applications to these techniques, beside the basic "block the punch." So....do you use them, if so how do you apply them to make them work?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #4

    Simultaneous blocking and striking

    Given the wasted motion of many basic TMA blocks, and the apparently even poorer economy of motion of more complex techniques, from an arm chair perspective, it would seem the best way to improve on the success of the boxing/MT style forearm cover would be to block and strike at the same time.

    It certainly makes sense when you think about it and I admit in my younger, more naive years, the simultaneous blocking/trapping while striking seen in Wing Chun demos looked amazing and ingenious to me. (This of course before I learned the dark truth about Wing Chun people.)

    Unfortunately, I am not aware of much success with this idea in the real world. The best example, off the top of my head, where blocking and striking is routinely successful would be this glorious technique.

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    This is pretty much standard fare in many TCMAs and, of course, boxing.

    Do you successfully apply simultaneous blocks and strikes under duress? What do you use and how do you make it work?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post

    Name:  middle block.jpg
Views: 2453
Size:  29.3 KB

    The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
    work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
    your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
    in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
    That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?
    I think that's one of those situations where somehow the middle block got exaggerated in kata over time but probably started out looking more like this:

    Name:  basic-block.jpg
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    if that's the case, then it's used all the time.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
    intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
    evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
    soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
    hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
    covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
    absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

    Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
    It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
    I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
    blocks that you find useless, why?

    Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
    in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
    you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
    with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
    In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
    is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
    real fighting?

    Name:  rising block.jpg
Views: 1836
Size:  20.6 KB

    In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
    schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
    the clean forearm angling over the head.

    Name:  middle block.jpg
Views: 2453
Size:  29.3 KB

    The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
    work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
    your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
    in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
    That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

    Name:  low block.jpg
Views: 1544
Size:  5.9 KB

    The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
    the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
    if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
    a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
    body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
    and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

    What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?
    One possibility of the karate outside middle block (as one example) could be meant as an attack to the outside of the elbow, while the non-blocking hand is pulling the wrist down and out in the opposite direction, both actions hyperextending the elbow. Meaning, your left hand to his right wrist, and your 'outside middle block' to his right elbow. And the contact point of the 'block' would be up higher on the forearm instead of the side of your wrist, for greater leverage. This would have to be in close, and definitely not at all as shown in the photo, nor as only a block to a punch. It would also most likely require you to pivot your body. Of course, this would leave you open to his left hand if done at the wrong time, or not quickly enough. I'm simply suggesting another possibility of what the movement might have been intended as.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 04-09-2015 at 07:13 AM.

  7. #7
    Greetings,

    Add another two to the six: ATTACK and AVOID


    mickey

  8. #8
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    I "re-arranged by priority" in my own case. More than one variable, but somatotype plays such a huge role. (Unless you are a walking refrigerator who just hates hard block even tho you can't feel it )

    I think they all work pretty good, it is a matter of one being the person to work them.
    I will eat that bear in juicy chunks, but oooo, if he lands one or two good ones or gets hold of me.....dead mongoose.
    If I was a fridge, I'd let the lil squirrels have a whack or two to bait them in close for the kung fu grip.
    This shades heavier by the strength/mass required to utilize them, because even a mongoose might have to resort to all of them, but if possible avoid the "poor mongoose" end of the scale...

    evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,


    soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,

    intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)

    covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,

    hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,

    absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a
    "The perfect way to do, is to be" ~ Lao Tzu

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I think that's one of those situations where somehow the middle block got exaggerated in kata over time but probably started out looking more like this:

    Name:  basic-block.jpg
Views: 1315
Size:  29.4 KB

    if that's the case, then it's used all the time.
    I agree, that's what it should have been. Simple direct and practical. The problem with this particular exaggeration over others is, the mechanics change so much by circling the arm inward and out, as opposed to simply turning the torso, it renders the technique useless in it's typically taught, basic form.

    Other moves are often exaggerated in form but the mechanics stay the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    One possibility of the karate outside middle block (as one example) could be meant as an attack to the outside of the elbow, while the non-blocking hand is pulling the wrist down and out in the opposite direction, both actions hyperextending the elbow. Meaning, your left hand to his right wrist, and your 'outside middle block' to his right elbow. And the contact point of the 'block' would be up higher on the forearm instead of the side of your wrist, for greater leverage. This would have to be in close, and definitely not at all as shown in the photo, nor as only a block to a punch. It would also most likely require you to pivot your body. Of course, this would leave you open to his left hand if done at the wrong time, or not quickly enough. I'm simply suggesting another possibility of what the movement might have been intended as.
    Certainly, I was taught alternate bunkai to every technique I learned in Karate. I also mentioned the more complex blocks are commonly attributed several different applications. My big issue with this particular move is that in many systems, this is day one basics and will be practiced as fundamental for as long as you train. I give a pass to the rising block, I don't think it's practical, but I do know it can be used, and the down block at least works as advertised, if not the best option, but this one, I think you are better off trying to extract some sort of forearm/hammer strike of chi na instead of using it to block with.

    Just my opinion though....I'm interested in others' take on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    Add another two to the six: ATTACK and AVOID


    mickey
    Best defense is a good offense, best block is not to be there...passes the cliche test anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by curenado View Post
    I "re-arranged by priority" in my own case.
    Interesting, I also had them arranged by priority. Not so much what I do, but what I would like to do....every now and then I skip the first five and go straight to taking a beating!
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  13. #13
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    exotic blocks stand out, westerners pay money for the exotic.

    from my experience when i show a realistic move, idea, theory or application to a hobbyist they lose all interest or even accuse me of fraud

    kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer
    Last edited by bawang; 04-09-2015 at 09:25 AM.

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  14. #14
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    I find that 75% of the time I use a cover (in Xingyi it's called "Tiger Holds Its Head") or a parry, and to make it even simpler I usually cover with my lead hand and parry with my back hand, although that's not hard/fast rule.

    The other 25% of the time I just hit them before they hit me.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post

    The other 25% of the time I just hit them before they hit me.
    Ha that's good. I was thinking about that attack as a tactic point made back up there...


    "Kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer"

    Very often true. The part about being jumped and accused because you are not identifying the latest compartmentalized fad as the true, original school even more so.
    (Who cares apes stupid)
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