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Thread: Blocks that work and blocks that don't

  1. #16
    Great topic and thread Kellen.

    For me, I got hit a lot. Both in boxing and karate. That said, slap parries worked well when I pulled them off. Slips I think were more accidental , I got bad eyes with the glasses off. Other than that it was shell up and absorb stuff on my arms and gloves as much as possible. But me style was to always advance. Always throw. Overwhelm. Having poor eyes, it was the only thing that worked consistently. I take 2 to give 10 sort of deal. If you keep them on their heels those 2 normally had little on them.

    Really great thread .

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    kung fu is supposed to mold and shape its practioner but american kung fu is shaped by the customer
    Sadly, this is true more often than not.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Great topic and thread Kellen.

    For me, I got hit a lot. Both in boxing and karate. That said, slap parries worked well when I pulled them off. Slips I think were more accidental , I got bad eyes with the glasses off. Other than that it was shell up and absorb stuff on my arms and gloves as much as possible. But me style was to always advance. Always throw. Overwhelm. Having poor eyes, it was the only thing that worked consistently. I take 2 to give 10 sort of deal. If you keep them on their heels those 2 normally had little on them.

    Really great thread .
    Thanks Billy, there's an art to that too....pushing forward, keeping someone backing up, taking weak shots to give heavy shots....that style works for a lot of people. And like you mentioned, slap parries, slips and cover....really what tends to work the best.

    I try not to write something off just because it hasn't worked for me....other people can do things I can't and may have a different method of making them work. I'm fairly confident in my assessment of the most basic blocks though...the more complex blocks, I mentioned a few out of the hundreds, not so sure. There tends to be very wide ranging ideas on the applications of these techniques. I am hoping some folks will share how they utilize them effectively.

    On a side note...I do now recall successfully using an X block, of the rising variety, on "da streetz" once. Someone tried to double hand choke me from the front, (not a very good move to lead with, I know.) I reached up caught both his wrists and pulled them down then landed a nice heavy round kick on his leg. The move, of course, wouldn't look exactly like the pose in form/kata but in application it was the proper technique. One of those rare cases where someone actually did lead with one of those silly bone head moves you see demoed all the time, a half-way experienced fighter would never do that...
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #19
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    If it was just street, I would have to say evade is all I've had to. Not a lot of street fighting time logged. Evade and hit was it so far on "surprise street chaos".
    "The perfect way to do, is to be" ~ Lao Tzu

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
    [...]
    I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless.
    [...]
    Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise.
    [...]
    In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure.
    Hard block, or force against force crashing, is instinctual. People need to train ability to achieve the softer intercepting type motions. Unconsciously, they really want to knock away the threat because they are afraid.

    If a method doesn't work, is it the person or the technique? A lot of times people will say the method is ineffective, but it may be that they are doing it wrong.

    A rising block(Kwa Sou, in Praying Mantis) that crashes against an attack is the beginner way. It's slow. It tends to be isolated to arm power instead of using full body mechanics. It doesn't integrate well with followup attacking. And it does little to control the opponent's center of mass. If a student is crashing or making big circles, we tell them they are doing it wrong.

    Instead of crashing, we are looking to intercept with our force vector tangent to the punch. Doing this from under his punch while advancing and turning lets you redirect his attack and throw him off balance and even backwards. The effect is like in a movie car stunt when one side of a car goes up a ramp and the car flips over. The faster the car goes, the harder it flips.

    If you use this when the person makes a strong committed attack, he throws himself off balance and gives you a big opening to attack his flank.

    Most students have a problem pulling this off. It takes a lot of training and guts to attack into the opponent's attack using an indirect method. They will hesitate and use the hard crashing method and get clobbered, which just reinforces them not to want to use the technique in the future.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch.
    Done the beginner way, with a lot of elbow bend and sideways crashing motion, it's pretty poor.

    Extend out to intercept the attack, catch the attack and draw it in while you also go in, use minimal sideways pressure just enough to take the attack off line, and jam in your own attack with the other hand at the same time. That works really well.

    Because your blocking arm isn't using brute force to knock away a punch, it can follow your attacking hand very quickly with a 1-2 timing. From straight 2, you recoil into a hook with the same hand. Makes for a nice 1-2-3 counterattack that needs only a small opening.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    The best example, off the top of my head, where blocking and striking is routinely successful would be this glorious technique.
    [...]
    Do you successfully apply simultaneous blocks and strikes under duress? What do you use and how do you make it work?
    Simultaneous control and hit with one move. As the guy punches, angle off and in, punch over the top of his attack. Your forearm controls his punch while your fist lands on his face.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Simultaneous control and hit with one move. As the guy punches, angle off and in, punch over the top of his attack. Your forearm controls his punch while your fist lands on his face.
    I was hoping you would comment. That's a good one that I hadn't really thought of as "blocking."
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Done the beginner way, with a lot of elbow bend and sideways crashing motion, it's pretty poor.

    Extend out to intercept the attack, catch the attack and draw it in while you also go in, use minimal sideways pressure just enough to take the attack off line, and jam in your own attack with the other hand at the same time. That works really well.

    Because your blocking arm isn't using brute force to knock away a punch, it can follow your attacking hand very quickly with a 1-2 timing. From straight 2, you recoil into a hook with the same hand. Makes for a nice 1-2-3 counterattack that needs only a small opening.
    There are lots of variations on middle block that would be far more practical than the basic scenario I described. Trouble I have with it, is I feel the most basic version is the worst....a sort of middle block variation I like, used in a lot of southern kung fu, the blocking arm is held higher, elbow at 90 degrees...(really a head block, but just sinking the elbow would protect the body,) you turn your torso to make the block, while punching...a lot like a stylized boxing catch and counter, different energy though. Haven't done much real testing of it...but I should....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    That's a good one that I hadn't really thought of as "blocking."
    It not really a block. More of a deflect/control using the attacking punch.

    The "rising block" has the same timing feel and initial tangential intercept, except from underneath.

  11. #26
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    When you

    - were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
    - get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
    - get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

    You should let your opponent to worry about "blocking". The moment that your opponent punches at you, you should think about not to give him any chance to punch you again.

    In the

    - throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
    - striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

    When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-11-2015 at 01:40 AM.
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  12. #27
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    I agree 100% with your assertions about the low block. I don't really see how that would be preferred technique for dealing with kicking when there are other options that work much better.

    The picture posted of the karateka doing ....jodan uke? The high rising block with the right hand pulled back to the waist? It looks very similar to one application I was shown for taiji's 'ward off', where, after a grab (ie - hockey style - grab and hold the shirt with one hand and thump with the other), the retracting hand wraps the grabbing hand, pulling back it toward the defender while simultaneously smashing up under the jaw or against the side of the neck with the rising forearm.

    I could also imagine this being used with forward movement to steal someone's space from them. As a static kind of standard block - I don't know that you'd recover in time to stop anything else coming at you.

    I don't know if this is how it's taught in traditional karate but the mechanics of the posture and their similarity to 'ward off' make me wonder if there are layers of meaning in the movements that some people perhaps don't reach?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you

    - were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
    - get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
    - get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

    You should let your opponent to worry about "blocking". The moment that your opponent punches at you, you should think about not to give him any chance to punch you again.

    In the

    - throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
    - striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

    When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.
    This.
    I would like to add with permission that when you are younger you take pre fight stances, happily and proudly displaying what the idiot is getting their self in to.
    When you are older you just stand there looking plain as punch and every bit worth punching....it's truly evil, but people who are going to punch poor kind lao fu deserve it and the surprise is very helpful (and gratifying)
    "The perfect way to do, is to be" ~ Lao Tzu

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you

    - were young, you may like to use hard block to hurt your opponent's kicking leg or punching arm.
    - get older, you may like to use soft deflect to redirect your opponent's punch away from yourself.
    - get much older, you may like to squeeze yourself through your opponent's punching gap and get your opponent at the same time.

    [...]

    When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.
    Yep!

    Get inside the gap between his intent and his movement.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Yep!

    Get inside the gap between his intent and his movement.
    Try to move in right after your opponent's 1st or 2nd punch should be the most important part of your daily training. The reason is simple. When your opponent punches you, he is closing the distance for you and you should take advantage on it.

    IMO, the best strategy in MA is, "if you punch/kick at me, I'll run you down". Your opponent's punch should be treated as "his invitation for your attack".
    http://johnswang.com

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