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Thread: Blocks that work and blocks that don't

  1. #31
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    A block that works is obviously doing its job, One that does not, gets you hit upside da head or worse, don't ya think?
    As Mr Who stated, one can get out of the way then position to setup for throw, or push/unbalance, then whatever your strong point is, utilize

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    In the

    - throwing art, you should pay more attention on how to throw your opponent and let him to worry about "break fall".
    - striking art, you should pay more attention on how to punch your opponent and let him to worry about "blocking".

    When your opponent punches you, you jump in and attack him a the same time. IMO, that's the correct MA attitude.
    Missed you man...I also subscribe to this philosophy. Defense is a losing game in the long run.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    A block that works is obviously doing its job, One that does not, gets you hit upside da head or worse, don't ya think?
    Well sure, but sometimes we make a block work, then fail later with the same block. Operator error, not faulty equipment. Other time a certain block has never worked...possibly faulty equipment....possibly we aren't using it correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Missed you man...I also subscribe to this philosophy. Defense is a losing game in the long run.
    Even a 6 years old, if he keeps punching at you and you keep blocking, soon or later he will still hit you. No matter how good you are, you will still miss your block sometime. You will never be able to claim that you can continue to block 1,000 punches from your opponent and not even miss 1 punch.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-11-2015 at 08:05 PM.
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  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
    The picture posted of the karateka doing ....jodan uke? The high rising block with the right hand pulled back to the waist? It looks very similar to one application I was shown for taiji's 'ward off', where, after a grab (ie - hockey style - grab and hold the shirt with one hand and thump with the other), the retracting hand wraps the grabbing hand, pulling back it toward the defender while simultaneously smashing up under the jaw or against the side of the neck with the rising forearm.

    I could also imagine this being used with forward movement to steal someone's space from them. As a static kind of standard block - I don't know that you'd recover in time to stop anything else coming at you.

    I don't know if this is how it's taught in traditional karate but the mechanics of the posture and their similarity to 'ward off' make me wonder if there are layers of meaning in the movements that some people perhaps don't reach?
    Yes, all those applications you mentioned are taught for that technique....and are probably better suited than the basic idea of using it to defend a punch to the head. I think being able to deal with hard, fast, retracted punches needs to be addressed as early as possible...students need something that is going to work for them right away. You know, for when you spar at the end of class.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  6. #36
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    When it comes to blocking defense I use only one ingrained blocking body configuration to deal with incoming striking force. A full body block for immediate protection, especially against a surprise attack. Shrinking/falling back for evasion of striking force is the option. Putting up a shield for the enemy to crash into unexpectedly can give you that split second advantage you may need. Warding off an attack allows you to remain intact to deliver. Roman Strategy: http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/...MCI-2086-1.png

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    To my thinking there are 6 distinct methods of defense,
    intercepting: (landing a more direct technique to a less direct one, i.e. jab lands before hook, front kick before round kick,)
    evasion: slipping, bobbing and weaving, dodging, head movement,
    soft blocking: parries, deflections, "borrowing" force,
    hard blocking: force against force, striking the attack with the forearm, checking with the knee,
    covering: allowing blows to glance off, or land on the guard,
    absorbing: conditioning the body to be able to take a shot.

    Obviously, intercepting and evasion are the ideal methods, but that can't always be accomplished in the real world.
    It seems to me that in traditional martial arts, there is a big focus on what I call "soft blocking" and "hard blocking."
    I want to discuss what blocking techniques actually work for you and which ones you find useless. Also, if you teach
    blocks that you find useless, why?

    Some of the most common blocks practiced are high, middle and low versions of the forearm block. They are fundamental
    in Okinawan, Japanese, and many Chinese systems. These are hard blocks, (although many instructors will say it's soft because
    you are deflecting the attack in a circular manner, experience says otherwise. You have to apply force to move a punch thrown
    with real intent and your forearm will feel it.)
    In many schools, the practice of standing in a line practicing these blocks in the air, or with a compliant partner punching at you,
    is absolutely fundamental to the system. The question is, do you find these techniques practical at all, during hard sparring or
    real fighting?

    Attachment 9393

    In my experience the rising block, is seen very rarely against real pressure. This technique is not only found in TMAs but in old
    schooling boxing manuals and Muay Thai. When applied it tends to look much more like a slightly modified boxer's cover than
    the clean forearm angling over the head.

    Attachment 9394

    The middle block is probably the most worthless basic technique in martial arts. I have never seen anything resembling it ever
    work against real pressure from a competent opponent. Never, by anyone. The very idea of of circling the forearm to the outside of
    your body, with your palm turned inward, is an absurd waste of movement against a straight punch. It simply needs to be choreographed
    in order to work. From Karate people who fight, I've heard, "We block this way for kata, but when we spar we use palm deflections."
    That begs the question, why bother practicing it at all?

    Attachment 9395

    The down block I, myself have used countless times against kicks. It does work, but I don't like it and have spent years trying to train
    the reaction out of me. My problem with it is that it requires dropping your hand, leaving you exposed to an attack to the head. Also,
    if a strong round kick is blocked like this, you could very well have your arm broken. I think a parry to the outside, (common MT defense to
    a teep, also common TCMA technique,) is much better. With the parry you are still exposing the head, but you can turn your opponents
    body away from you at an angle, making it very difficult for him to counter you. A simple knee check is better suited to the low round kick
    and has the added benefit of punishing the kicker.

    What are your opinions/experience with this type of blocking?
    I once saw a Shotokan Karate master demonstrate in Bangkok. His movement was fluid, not punctuated and rigid like you see in most kata demonstrations. One has to understand that these arts were dynamic in their execution as originally intended and meant to adapt to the situation. The forms were just a starting point. Lots of what happened in the West is that some of the first guys to learn this stuff and bring it home were in the military. Generally their tours were not very long 1-2 years. It takes many years of training to get the essence of the art and lots of those guys just learned lots of basics and then brought it back to teach as gospel without ever really being challenged to put up in the real world. Thus crappy technique perpetuated itself and so on.

    The middle block that you identified has always perplexed me as well. We have a similar block in Hsing-i and I've always regarded it as a pulling technique. Some civil war era knives had copper lining the back of the blade and that was to provide a soft surface to grab an opponents knife should the two collide. In like manner the inner "yin" part of the arm is the absorbing surface and seems to serve a similar function. A much stronger block is with the palm facing the opponent which is actually a modification of Pao quan or "Fire Fist". It also provides a biomechanical setup for a really powerful counter punch. With the orthodox form there does seem to be some opportunities for redirection of force but that would be some advanced stuff with a moving opponent. Not impossible but probably beyond the scope of somebody that needs reliable technique out of the box.

    Also lots of these blocks are much more effective when combined with some dynamic footwork and honestly that's probably the main feature I've found lacking in many martial arts. When I began studying Hsing-i I could never figure out why my teacher could so easily wipe me out until I discovered that he was fluidly moving in and out of my effective striking zone while blocking and I was performing the techniques while basically standing still which is really what most martial arts in my experience teach. That's not to say that they don't move but when the technique comes they momentarily freeze their footwork to perform it. By the time I tried to counter he had already reset his position and I had to reset mine before re engaging.
    Last edited by Brat; 05-04-2015 at 06:25 PM.

  8. #38
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    the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work
    Last edited by bawang; 05-04-2015 at 07:27 PM.

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  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Brat View Post
    Lots of what happened in the West is that some of the first guys to learn this stuff and bring it home were in the military. Generally their tours were not very long 1-2 years. It takes many years of training to get the essence of the art and lots of those guys just learned lots of basics and then brought it back to teach as gospel without ever really being challenged to put up in the real world. Thus crappy technique perpetuated itself and so on.
    This is exactly how Karate was brought to the west. But also, the Okinawans weren't sparring so it's easy to see how those ideas got perpetuated. The Okinawan's inherited all those techniques from China though...presumably they were never exposed to real sparring/fight training either, or they simply decided not to practice/teach it.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work
    I've noticed that in older forms, while many modern forms seem to incorporate the blocking methods I was talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the more orthodox and well grounded northern styles dont focus on types of blocking or special hand attacks. its just a slap or a hard arm knock or cover up. its all footwork and body work
    That's how I was taught it in Xingyi, that it is a cover, and it can aid you getting on the inside.

    The middle block that you identified has always perplexed me as well. We have a similar block in Hsing-i and I've always regarded it as a pulling technique.

  12. #42
    Sparring at a distance, all that stuff works great if you practice it. When a dude is close enough to tough you and moves. My money says he is going to crack you before you can flinch. RANGE is important. Most blocks and parry's will only work at a distance far enough away for you to see and react in time. Now that WC and other systems idea of contact blocking/redirection works great and is sound in that we react to touch quicker than visually. But the problem is you have to touch for it to work. So, the problem for WC, etc guys is you need to figure out how to do that before a fight kicks off.

    Personally, I will just smack you in the face first and either continue or back off and get my range or better still turn and run away like a sissy. I am all for running away!

  13. #43
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    Many super input in this thread.

    Kellen,

    To comment on your view on the middle and low block, they are not useless. They are effective under certain conditions. Not rare conditions.


    Middle Block - done properly, we use the inner edge of our forearm to block. The muscles used are not only those in our forearm, but the upper arm and shoulder are used to support the move and stability after our forearm hit the opponent's forearm. The conditions required is that the incoming attack is a straight arm attack. The block is not strong enough in strength against attack like a hook punch. Besides, the inner edge of our forearm is weaker than the outer edge.

    Low Block - done properly, we use our palm to hit the opponent's leg at any where between the middle of his shin and the thigh. Because the leg is stronger than an arm, applying a hard block against a kick at a spot lower than the mid-shin is not advisable. The contact force is just too strong. Sure, the opponent's leg might get hurt, but our arm will certainly got injured. You know the vulunbility of this block technique. So either keep our upper trunk not close to the opponent arms or duck our upper trunk to his mid-section. No matter the block is successful or not, make counter-attack right away if we can.



    Regards,

    KC
    Hong Kong

  14. #44
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    The idea of "blocking" may be too conservative. If you can always use your blocking followed by a "wrapping", you can wrap your opponent as an octopus wraps on a fish, your opponent won't be able to punch you again.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-10-2015 at 12:15 AM.
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  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLau View Post
    Many super input in this thread.

    Kellen,

    To comment on your view on the middle and low block, they are not useless. They are effective under certain conditions. Not rare conditions.
    Thanks Steve, actually I think the low block works alright, just feel there are better options...I would have to see someone making the middle block work well, in the manner it's taught. Seems like effective middle blocks tend to look a lot more like the boxing block Mighty B posted earlier....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

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