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Thread: Wing Chun Sparring

  1. #1

    Wing Chun Sparring

    Tao Te Ching
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    Those who argue are not wise.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    Are you one of the guys in the clip?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Are you one of the guys in the clip?
    I am, yes.
    Tao Te Ching
    A wise person does not argue.
    Those who argue are not wise.

  4. #4
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    Not sure Wing Chun is the style for the basketball player. He's giving up his size and reach advantage, making it easier for his opponents to deal with him, and harder on himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    I am, yes.
    And you honestly think its both a good representation of wing Chun and sparring in general

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    And you honestly think its both a good representation of wing Chun and sparring in general
    This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?
    Tao Te Ching
    A wise person does not argue.
    Those who argue are not wise.

  7. #7
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    actually, this is not a good representation of wing chun sparring. chi sau is a game we play that helps us develop our attack and defence techniques. sparring from a chi sau is not really appropriate. the only other person you will expect to do that is a wing chun trained person. unless you hang out in a wing chun school, you are not likely ever have to defend against another such trained person. crossing and rolling hands will get you into trouble.
    I remember watching a video where the WC guy just walked into the ring and immediately tried to cross hands. the other guy just knocked his brain out.
    Jackie Lee

  8. #8
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    Sorry dreamer but I have to agree with the others, this isn't 'sparring', WC or otherwise. While there is what some might view as light wing chun chi sau drilling in the beginning and the second part is just light tag and chasing hands and little to know real contact - just because there are gloves on doesn't make it sparring. Nothing personal here
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Sorry dreamer but I have to agree with the others, this isn't 'sparring', WC or otherwise. While there is what some might view as light wing chun chi sau drilling in the beginning and the second part is just light tag and chasing hands and little to know real contact - just because there are gloves on doesn't make it sparring. Nothing personal here
    None taken. Please enlighten me with your sparring or ring experience to give some context or weight to your opionions.
    Tao Te Ching
    A wise person does not argue.
    Those who argue are not wise.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    None taken. Please enlighten me with your sparring or ring experience to give some context or weight to your opionions.
    Heh, nice try - It's not my job to teach you these things, but I honestly was just trying to help and not take a dig at you. It's good that you are putting yourself out there and if you had just made the thread 'here's some clips of some light WC training' I'd agree 100%, but I really don't think you understand what 'sparring' is .
    To quote an old member here (T.N.), all you have to do is go to any boxing gym to see what sparring is. Or look up 'boxing sparring' on youtube. WC sparring shouldn't be much different, even if our tools, methods and approaches are.

    Here's one of the first examples that shows up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2VSIDBWNGc

    Again, different methods and approaches to fighting from WC, but there is real contact and real punches thrown here with intent (even if not at full power). Only this type of pressure testing is going to help you see where your skills really are. Chi sau drills are good for understanding tools, leverage reference points, pressure in a controlled setting, etc, but I think often times people mistake these things for sparring.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 05-17-2015 at 01:20 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Heh, nice try - It's not my job to teach you these things, but I honestly was just trying to help and not take a dig at you. It's good that you are putting yourself out there and if you had just made the thread 'here's some clips of some light WC training' I'd agree 100%, but I really don't think you understand what 'sparring' is .
    To quote an old member here (T.N.), all you have to do is go to any boxing gym to see what sparring is. Or look up 'boxing sparring' on youtube. WC sparring shouldn't be much different, even if our tools, methods and approaches are.

    Here's one of the first examples that shows up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2VSIDBWNGc

    Again, different methods and approaches to fighting from WC, but there is real contact and real punches thrown here with intent (even if not at full power). Only this type of pressure testing is going to help you see where your skills really are. Chi sau drills are good for understanding tools, leverage reference points, pressure in a controlled setting, etc, but I think often times people mistake these things for sparring.
    Not asking you to teach me. I am asking you to back up what you know about sparring, as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is". Thanks for showing me your ability to use google.
    Sparring is about timing and movement, nothing else. You will also note the clip you provided me were individuals of the same weight category, etc. The clip I provided was of people with over 50lbs weight difference, hardly appropriate for what you're suggesting, again it is about use timing and movement. Also please look at the difference in gloves between the clips.
    If you want full contact you need smoker events, step in the ring, etc. Like below:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidTtZqueXY
    Last edited by thedreamer7; 05-17-2015 at 05:25 AM.
    Tao Te Ching
    A wise person does not argue.
    Those who argue are not wise.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?
    Yes I have, both kick boxing, and traditional kung fu fighting, and after spending 10 years in the same gym as Paul Daley and Andre winner I know wheat fighting and sparring looks like and that isn't it

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    This is real training not something choreographed for the camera and the two smaller guys have fought in the ring so have nothing to prove. Have you?
    I honestly have a tough time with video clips like this. On a positive side the school atmosphere does seem to include a lot of free movement interaction (sparring/etc - I don't want to argue over semantics). On the negative side which is going to be amplified in clip comments here just the nature of things, the chi sau seemed very attribute based, and I think that doesn't work at all as the skill level of the opponent goes up - need to control the space, not do the arm motions. The sparring you don't have enough space to move freely and with that hard of a floor and a mirror you're only going to be able to minimally step up the pace. 4oz gloves do cut so I can understand not unloading on punches, but the sparring part to me didn't really involve much contact at all. Also the cheaper the 4oz glove the more it cuts. But the fact that you are doing it, it's ingrained into the culture of the school, etc. is a whole lot better than not doing it. For a contrast on the contact level, here's some sparring at Travis Lutter's - a mma gym where I know the quality of the competitors. Wing chun sparring at the same level probably won't have the same evasion tactics but stay more put.



    So overall honestly I would say keep doing your thing with some relatively minor adjustments. The changes needed between what is on that clip and what represents good quality sparring sessions is minor compared to the changes needed in a school whose culture just ignores all that kind of interaction with sparring. And you don't have to train ground fighting but do have to allow for it in sparring sessions.

    Hopefully this post is helpful. I'm sure the tendency on this forum after posting up a video clip is to think there's a bunch of non sparring armchair quarterbacks criticizing, but I also think there are a fair amount of posters with some experience on here too so please stick around and help show us how you're developing your sparring over time. That kind of development in schools interests me a lot.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    Not asking you to teach me. I am asking you to back up what you know about sparring, as an ex amateur boxer I think I know what 'boxing sparring is". Thanks for showing me your ability to use google.
    And thanks for your snarky reply LOL
    I provided that clip for a reason and I feel it is still a valid example of what I'm talking about in regards to making contact & pressure (more on that below).

    Quote Originally Posted by thedreamer7 View Post
    Sparring is about timing and movement, nothing else. You will also note the clip you provided me were individuals of the same weight category, etc. The clip I provided was of people with over 50lbs weight difference, hardly appropriate for what you're suggesting, again it is about use timing and movement. Also please look at the difference in gloves between the clips.
    If you want full contact you need smoker events, step in the ring, etc. Like below:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidTtZqueXY
    I see sparring as a lot more than you listed above, so maybe that's the disconnect. Having had boxing experience yourself, I am surprised this is all it its to you. Again, maybe that's why the disconnect

    To be on even ground and since you asked for my ring/sparring experience, here it is: I trained for a several years in a boxing gym when I was younger. I sparred on a pretty regular basis. Some light contact to work on what you are saying (timing/movement), and then progressively upping the challenges, speed, intensity, time, etc to pressure test my skills to the point they start falling apart so I know what to go back and work on.

    I have also been training WC since 2003. I feel sparring should be an integral part of skill development and pressure testing in ANY art and in most cases is the same format, boxing, WC or otherwise. IMO, it's a lot more than just 'about timing and movement'. While yes sparring is surely about those things, that is only a very general sense and in my experience it should be quite a bit more than that. While again, I applaud your efforts and willingness to share what you're doing here, I see what you are showing as what I view the first basic step into 'sparring'. (nothing personal or slight against you as we all should start there - just giving my POV)

    For me, 'sparring' is also about progressively taking off the training wheels from regular partner drilling and building up to a point where you're pressure testing either a given area of skills you've developed or up to and including all of the areas you've trained (and even into areas you haven't). You could have constraints set to say, work only random single handed attack/defense, moving into simple 2 and 3 shot hand attacks/defenses & counter attacks, adding in kicks, then move toward all free attacks/exchanges in stand-up only, and even include grappling/wrestling attempts and ultimately even takedowns and ground work. Or just work any given area in isolation. And yes, all of this in a WC school, as one should test against anything that could happen in the real world Again, I would expect if you've been in amateur boxing, none of this should be too foreign to you.
    But my point being - the energy level/pressure goes up as the sparring progresses as well and/or as constraints are stripped away. This will test your application skills and help identify problem areas, which give a 'real' assessment of where your fight skills are at. Without this type of progressive sparring pressure testing, you can't truly find where your holes are in things like WC body structure, centerline occupation, facing, gate theories, etc as you'd need them in a real confrontation. Fixed drills & chi sau only go so far.

    In any case, beyond the beginning step of getting to the movement and contact (everyone has to start somewhwere!), there should be increased contact/pressure applied very shortly after, which is why I included the clip to give an example of what I'm referring too. Besides the cut factor of small glove sizes as wayfarring pointed out, why should WC sparring be any different than what I provided in the clip or outlined above? (although in WC we are working different strategies, tools, methods, bridging applications, etc) To only spar with timing/movement in mind, and not actually tring to hit each other with some type of force/pressure (25%, 50%, 75%, etc energy), seems very limited and doesn't give the feedback sparring should IMO - regardless the size/weight. So not sure the point of your weight class comparison. IMO if the individuals are able to control their shots to a pre-determined level, size/weight discrepencies should matter less. I have sparred with people bigger than me and also much smaller than me, with both higher and lower skill level. As long as the constraints are understood, energy levels are match appropriately and both are working equally to the same goals, it should still be productive with higher energy levels. And, it's also nice to have someone bigger or stronger or more skilled to be able to be taken into deep waters and see if you sink or swim.
    With your previous experience, you should be able to have enough control over your energies to be able to up the pressure level beyond light tag as shown in the clip with bigger/smaller people yeah? How do you prove if WC can really work against bigger/stronger/faster as it's supposedly designer for unless you really test it against someone trying to give you the buisness a little?

    And I really don't see the point of your clip you provided. Are you saying your first clip on your OP is 'sparring' at it's limits, this second clip is 'full contact' and there is nothing in between?
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 05-19-2015 at 05:27 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    And I really don't see the point of your clip you provided. Are you saying your first clip on your OP is 'sparring' at it's limits, this second clip is 'full contact' and there is nothing in between?
    Yes. Again I would prefer if you and your buddy provided clips rather than just text, otherwise to me you sound just like armchair warriors. The other clip I posted to you was to show my guys actually go and fight rather than talk. You can talk all you like on a forum, but you only know what works by stepping in the ring, my training is geared towards that. Many of the guys I train with are active MMA fighters and have a very different opinion to you on sparring.
    Regarding ground game, I enter BJJ competitions, so again I leave that to the matt to figure out what works. I train at Marchelo Garcia BJJ school.
    Last edited by thedreamer7; 05-19-2015 at 05:36 PM.
    Tao Te Ching
    A wise person does not argue.
    Those who argue are not wise.

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