Rethinking the Crescent Kick

[Kellen Bassette]

Can you post an image of this? I'm not sure what you mean. My kungfu exposure is almost exclusively northern (mantis though, so very little in kicks above waist) and I've not seen this type of action. I have seen it in southern kung fu, specifically hung kuen's Lau Gar form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?

[mickey]

Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.

The inside crescent kick crosses the following target areas, foot instep, knee, groin, floating ribs, I think you get the idea. Then you have to consider the contact area of the foot: toe, ball, instep, heel, etc.

Crescent kicks have been used for leg deflections, an art unto itself that is slowly dying out. Tornado/whirlwind kicks and butterfly kicks can be used as counters to certain throws.

Kicking combinations have been in use in TCMA for a very long time.

Do check out Wang Xinde's books. They are a very good representation of TCMA kicking methods.

mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.

Good impression, I like it. I am going to retest the kick based on the explanation by RDH and then Soco. Striking upwards opposed to across would open up a lot more potential targets that wouldn't have been practical with the weaker version drawing all its' power from the leg swing.

[SoCo KungFu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?

Ah. Yeah so I won't comment on Shaolin. I really only know one Shaolin set but its very short (basically 2 roads and a couple moves). Does not have that kick. It has one knee per road, typical front snap kick and inside crescent (so actually I know 2 sets with that kick). In this case its in a combo; trip (similar to tan tui hanging stance application, meaning really close range) -> inside crescent follow (because really close, hands in app are for grappling) -> grappling hands for arm bar with stamp/trip (common technique in mantis, this time done with previous kicking leg).

No, I don't often use crescents. But that is also because I don't often kick above waist. When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick. The eye cutting kick I previously mentioned isn't bad, but the kick itself isn't that forceful. Its a distraction. I have an old kung fu brother that has used it to win sparring tourneys, usually using it to set up a cross or hook. But I'm a southpaw, so for me to outside crescent following a closed gate means I'm either kicking with my rear leg which isn't very good as crescent or I'm anticipating their cross. In either case, I prefer round kicks. But 90% of my kicks in sparring are either leg kicks or mantis leg cutting. Anything else means I'm probably having to chase my opponent or I'm using distance myself, so crescents really aren't all that useful for me.

It should also be said I guess that most of my sparring is from MMA. And I favor close to clinch range. Crescent kicks (or wheel kicks, hook kicks etc.) usually mean getting dumped on my back end. So I don't really do them. The majority of my leg techniques are for disrupting balance/toppling/tripping. Mantis was supposedly built off northern long fist, but in this day its evolved to something different. Northern kung fu stereotypes don't really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren't chambered like you typically see. So I can't really comment on other kung fu I guess.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ah. Yeah so I won't comment on Shaolin.

I've also seen that in Eagle Claw, (though I don't know where the forms originate?) And of course modern wushu...

When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick.

I kick quite a bit, but those are my go tos, along with the side thrust kick. Also like to check the leg with a cross kick.
Almost everything else I use sparingly, as a surprise, or just something to throw when I feel comfortable. If I'm under a lot of pressure I'll resort mostly to a leg kick.

Northern kung fu stereotypes don't really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren't chambered like you typically see. So I can't really comment on other kung fu I guess.

A lot of diversity out there for sure...

[Cataphract]

Northern and southern Kung Fu, Silat and Karate people are doing crescent, lotus, crossed body kicks. The Yang TaiChi form has several. They're kicking their open palm in the forms. It is really awkward to roundhouse your own palm. How likely is it crescent kicks are only meant as crippled roundhouses when every other form has a crescent kick?

Yang Chengfu explains them as takedowns to the flank or chest while dragging the opposite arm, possibly after an attack from behind.

[bawang]

hi guyse how to is kick wark

[Cataphract]

hi guyse how to is kick wark

You actually don't have a clue, do you?

[boxerbilly]

hi guyse how to is kick wark

[wolfen]

According to this article in Taekwondo there is no such thing as an Inside Crescent or Outside Crescent Kick,
The "My outside arcing to opponent" or "outside to inside" is a crescent kick (bandal chagi).
The "My inside arcing to opponent or "inside to outside" is a hooking kick (golcho chag") or perhaps (My vertical standing inside arcing to opponent)

Confusing Terminology: Crescent Kick, Vertical Kick, Hooking Kick, Hook Kick

Some common kicks that are confused include the crescent kick and inward vertical kick, and the hooking kick, outward vertical kick and the hook kick, and add to that the reverse turning kick and reverse hook[ing] kick.

The crescent kick (bandal chagi) and hooking kick (geolchyeo chagi)][/B] are both defensive techniques in ITF Taekwon-Do; in other words, these kicks are used to block an opponent's attack.

The following points may help to clear up some confusion with regard to these kicks. A crescent kick is always done with an inward arc. There is no such thing as an outward crescent kick. An “outward crescent kick” is basically a hooking kick. Similarly, a hooking kick is always done with an outward arc. The crescent kick and hooking kick are only used as blocking techniques. They are not offensive techniques. The mix-up comes in because these kicks are often confused with vertical kicks.

And then it gets really clear the nearly the same motions are now vertical kick (Sewo Chagi) when used as attacks.


Inward Vertical Kick

Vertical kicks are similar to the crescent kick and hooking kick as they also move in a somewhat arc motion. The chief difference is that vertical kicks are offensive techniques; in other words, they are used for attacking and not blocking. The vertical kick (sewo chagi) gets its name because the foot is held upward, i.e. vertically; although it actually strikes the target in a horizontal fashion. Imagine keeping your hand vertically and then slapping someone horizontally through the face; now translate that image to a kick.
The vertical kick can be done in an inward motion, known as an inward vertical kick, or outward motion, known as an outward vertical kick. For the outward vertical kick the foot sword is used as the attacking tool, while the reverse foot sword—that is the area on the inverted side of the foot sword—is used as the attacking tool for the inward vertical kick. Unlike the crescent kick and hooking kick which are usually done low and middle section, the vertical kicks can be done at any height, but usually at middle and high sections. Practitioners often use the vertical kick at high section to attack the opponent's head, slapping them through the face with the foot.

So the outward Vertical kick is like an inside to outside crescent kick
and the inward vertical kick is like an outside to inside crescent kick
.. and he goes on to say there is confusion between Hooking Kick and Hook kick


I have a hardcover copy of Taekwondo By General Choi Hong Hi (Pub ITF).
Says exactly the same as the above by inference. Only the Crescent Kick and a Hooking kick ("golcho chagi" different spelling) are defined and illustrated as such.
And the vertical kick is defined and illustrated as above and is inside to outside and the outside to inside is simply called "Reverse Footsword".
The footsword is the blade of the flat foot.

.....


Outside versus Inside

Now to make matters worse, scanning the internet, I see inside and outside crescent kicks definitions are reversed by some people.
Some say one kick is the inside crescent kick and others demo that same kick and say it is the outside crescent kick

Taekwondo Outside Crescent Kick Tutorial (Kwonkicker)
(Outside to inside)

Taekwondo Crescent Kick Tutorial (Outside) for MMA & Kickboxing | 60fps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD8l2Vu0GgI


2 crescent kick single leg defense
(In this video he say's "inside crescent kick" technique looks a little dubious to me or the demo is not well done )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBPXwGSxT0M

They say "Outside to inside kick and refer to it as "Outside Kick".

Mirror Universe

Crescent Kick Tutorial - Inside & Outside (Standing, Spinning & Jumping)
(In the first 20 seconds: both kicks definitions are shown)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2lLEd-YH8

Outside Crescent Kick - Hapkido
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZClxTAhmk

Steve Sexton teaching Hapkido inside crescent Kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ngzxkrzw14

Outside Crescent Kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZClxTAhmk
some of them say "outside to inside kick and refer to it as "inside kick"

So actually you might be discussing outside crescent and someone is thinking inside crescent.

And so on and so on. The latter looks more common , there were some more examples of the former.
--------------------------------------------------------

There is more power can be generated with the crescent kick and/or vertical inside kick than the hooking kick and/or vertical outside kick because the weight of the body as a unit can be thrown in with it over a longer distance. (Using the ITF terminology).

[boxerbilly]

As with any developing language. Terminology can change. I have long since forgot almost all the limited Korean I knew as part of learning TKD. Aside from tradition it served no purpose to know another language to do any of it.

My long ago Sa bum nim .

https://www.facebook.com/mark.mccarthy.330

[wolfen]

So my point about "confusing terminology' is that iwe can't be sre what peopel mena if they just usse teh labes "outside or insid e crescent kick. t woudl be better if peopel descibed the kick as well as using the lavbel so we can understnd which kick they are talking about if we are not wathcing a demo.

mIy

[wolfen]

So my point about "confusing terminology' is that I'm not certain what people mean if they just use the labels "outside" or "inside" crescent kick. It would be better if people describe the kick as well as using the label so I can understated which kick they are talking about if we are not watching a demo.


Circular low kicks
Here are two low circular low kicks from Hapkido They are both using the idea of kicking out at an angle varying degrees from center and circling back in the same motion as the high kicks , the crescent and inside vertical kick.

Hapkido low kicks



At :48 to 1:02 seconds he shows the low Hapkido inside to outside hooking kick usually done into the groin or thigh and circling out. The Hapkido kick connects with the thigh into the groin or between groin and knee and the opponent's leg collapses outward. If you kick in and outwards the opponent is unbalanced. This can be done in standing grappling/grabbing. It is very effective. You have be be very careful with practicing with a partner not to endanger their knee as the leg buckles outwards.


At 1:24 to 1:40 seconds he shows the circular low outside to inside kick coming back in and striking the back of the opponents leg or knee, So it's outside to inside but come back against the back of the knee with heel. Again it is very effective in taking down the opponent. In partner practice the sole of the foot is used against the back of the knee rather than the ball as the ball is too dangerous. I know one guy got taken down with the ball of the heel in the back of his knee and it damaged his knee for a long term problem Put a wedge at the back of the knee and it has no place to go when the leg is compressed, it must be damaged, dislocate or break.


So both are short range or short range grabbing or grapplings. They are more for a viscous kind of self defense than for sparring. They are in the basic idea of standing vertically with kicks going out to the side and circling at the end point . Thee are just done low as compared to high.



Lotus Kick Mantis Boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5BIBrXvMY

Here the demonstrator show something like the low hooking kick of Hapkido from inside to out - but he actually kicks the groin and doesn't circle outwards to unbalance his opponent . He shows the outward hook motion in demonstration but he I think he is more intent on the kick rather than unbalancing.

[boxerbilly]

Well yes. I see your point. I think most people posting in this thread are of the same mind with the inside outside cresent kick. Perhaps it is a generic English term and being English it can have many meanings- ****nyms , LOL. But you are in fact correct and I agree fully.

[wolfen]

Well yes. I see your point. I think most people posting in this thread are of the same mind with the inside outside cresent kick. Perhaps it is a generic English term and being English it can have many meanings- ****nyms , LOL. But you are in fact correct and I agree fully.

It was because I didn't know which definition the people in this thread were using that I researched the subject.

Kung Fu : Double Outside Crescent Kick



I think in ITF this would be called a outside vertical kick.