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Thread: Bong never stays

  1. #1
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    Bong never stays

    The old WCK maxim about bong sau never stays (bong but ting lau). Doesn't that really apply to every Wing Chun "hand"?
    If tan sau, bong sau, fook sau, gum sau, lan sau, etc. are actions rather than positions, then should all hands be in a constant state of motion?
    Otherwise you are just offering a lever for the opponent to control you?

    I know, perhaps you can say that your gum/lan is controlling the opponent so it "stays out", but would be interested in your thoughts.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    The old WCK maxim about bong sau never stays (bong but ting lau). Doesn't that really apply to every Wing Chun "hand"?
    If tan sau, bong sau, fook sau, gum sau, lan sau, etc. are actions rather than positions, then should all hands be in a constant state of motion?
    Otherwise you are just offering a lever for the opponent to control you?

    I know, perhaps you can say that your gum/lan is controlling the opponent so it "stays out", but would be interested in your thoughts.
    --------------------------------

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Relative to tan and fok- bong is more "springy-IMO possibly hence the kuit

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    The old WCK maxim about bong sau never stays (bong but ting lau). Doesn't that really apply to every Wing Chun "hand"?
    If tan sau, bong sau, fook sau, gum sau, lan sau, etc. are actions rather than positions, then should all hands be in a constant state of motion?
    Otherwise you are just offering a lever for the opponent to control you?
    Agree! In my wing chun every hand is in constant motion!

  4. #4
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    Hello,

    I always viewed Bong as a transitional movement which was formed by the energy given.
    A Bong should deflect the force and change into something else, if you try to hold the Bong you leave yourself open to several counters.

    Having said this the Taun should also be formed by the energy given by the opponent.
    In an ideal situation the force of the incoming energy should form the Taun, if the incoming force is not enough then the Taun would continue forward and become a strike.

    Everything being in constant motion reminds me of something a Tai Chi guy said when asked how many movements were in his form?
    He replied that there were two; he started and then stopped, everything in between was a continuation of the fisrt movement.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    everything in between was a continuation of the first movement.
    I agree! the first movement being to strike and disrupt the opponent's center axis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    bong sau never stays ...
    No matter how fast that you may move, there are always

    - before,
    - during, and
    - after.

    Each stage may be 1/10 second, 1/20 second, or ..., but that stage does exist. Before your arm and your opponent's arm make contact, if your opponent can detect your "intention", when you "intend" to raise your elbow (before stage), he can help your elbow to raise even higher, you will open yourself up and expose your chest. The same issue won't happen to Tang Shou or Fu Shou. The reason is simple, it's much harder to take advantage on the "intention" of Tang Shou and Fu Shou, it's much easier to take advantage on the "intention" of Bong Shou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    if you try to hold the Bong you leave yourself open to several counters.
    Agree! But you don't need to "hold" your Bong Shou, your "before" stage with your opponent's "help" can open yourself up. It's just too easy for your opponent to "borrow" your force in Bong.

    It's like the Karate "upward block", when you punch and your opponent use "upward block" on you, if you use "upward block" to block his "upward block", you can open him up completely.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-08-2015 at 01:47 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Agree! But you don't need to "hold" your Bong Shou, your "before" stage with your opponent's "help" can open yourself up. It's just too easy for your opponent to "borrow" your force in Bong.It's like the Karate "upward block", when you punch and your opponent use "upward block" on you, if you use "upward block" to block his "upward block", you can open him up completely.
    I would have to disagree with the idea of your opponent "borrowing your force from Bong".

    Your Bong, as I was taught, is not an attack and does not have any force for the opponent to utilize.
    Rather the Bong is a shape formed by the opponents energy which redirects the force.
    So, if you are providing force of your own in Bong then, IMHO, you either are doing it wrong or do not understand the concept.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I would have to disagree with the idea of your opponent "borrowing your force from Bong".

    Your Bong, as I was taught, is not an attack and does not have any force for the opponent to utilize.
    Rather the Bong is a shape formed by the opponents energy which redirects the force.
    So, if you are providing force of your own in Bong then, IMHO, you either are doing it wrong or do not understand the concept.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Teachings can vary. IMO-if the structure and dynamics are well trained- you can attack with a bong !!!

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    I'd agree with both of your differing points - depends on what type of bong we're talking about and the contact point on the kiu/arm. More than one way to bong a cat!
    (ok, maybe that last part didn't come out as I had hoped LOL)
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    if the structure and dynamics are well trained- you can attack with a bong
    Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power to disrupt the opponent's center axis.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 07-09-2015 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power to disrupt the opponent's center axis.
    Sorry, but my understanding and application of the Bong would not entail using it to deliver a strike or the like.
    In my mind this would be something different and no longer be a Bong.

    Of course, I am open to discussing how a Bong can be used to deliver a strike without it becoming an Elbow strike.
    In my WC/WT we had several differing elbow strikes from various angles.
    In one of the Chi Sections we had a trap using the elbow but it was not a Bong, despite the shape being somewhat similar.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I would have to disagree with the idea of your opponent "borrowing your force from Bong".

    Your Bong, as I was taught, is not an attack and does not have any force for the opponent to utilize.
    Rather the Bong is a shape formed by the opponents energy which redirects the force.
    So, if you are providing force of your own in Bong then, IMHO, you either are doing it wrong or do not understand the concept.
    As long as your body is moving, you are using force. It may be 100 lb, 10 lb, 1 lb, 1 oz, ... Even your "intention" can be borrow.

    If your opponent "intends" to move

    - forward, you help him to move forward more than he wants to.
    - backward, you help him to move backward more than he wants to.
    - upward, you help him to move upward more than he wants to.
    - downward, you help him to move downward more than he wants to.

    In other words, everything that you do, your opponent can borrow your force/intention to against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Sorry, but my understanding and application of the Bong would not entail using it to deliver a strike or the like.
    2 examples here:

    1. You throw a right hook punch at your opponent's head. Your opponent blocks it with his left arm.
    2. Your right hook punch arm slide along the inside of his left blocking arm and punch at his chest.

    1. your opponent's right hand punches at your face.
    2. You use XingYi Pao Chuan type of left arm upward block to block his punch. Your left arm then punch at his chest.

    I believe the 2nd part of the above 2 examples are similar to the Bong Shou moving path. In the praying mantis system, this is called 哈拳(Ha Chuan). It also exists in the CLF system but I don't know what a CLF guy may call it.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-09-2015 at 01:45 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Sorry, but my understanding and application of the Bong would not entail using it to deliver a strike or the like.
    In my mind this would be something different and no longer be a Bong.

    Of course, I am open to discussing how a Bong can be used to deliver a strike without it becoming an Elbow strike.
    In my WC/WT we had several differing elbow strikes from various angles.
    In one of the Chi Sections we had a trap using the elbow but it was not a Bong, despite the shape being somewhat similar.
    Of course this wasn't directed at me, but... KFF said "Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power to disrupt the opponent's center axis." - While I obviously can't speak for anyone else, to me, this makes sense and what he said doesn't necessarily imply a 'strike' (although IMO it can be that too!). But then it depends on what type of bong sau one is talking about

    For example, we have 3 different types of bong sau in our system. One of them plays on center and has a bent wrist which is called hok bong (or crane bong) and usually follows a raising motion on center. The mechanics of this bong generally have the arm about shoulder height horizontally (wrist/ elbow/shoulder on same horizontal plane) with both a bent wrist & fingers on center. Contact point is usually mid-fore-arm (vs wrist-contact). The energy typically shoots fwd with the fingers still on center and the intent is to penetrate the space on center. If the opponent stiffens up, the energy will also drive thru his arm and disrupt his center greatly. If not, then yeah, the fingers could continue to shoot fwd and most likely hit him in the face, becoming a strike without having to change to something else.

    Now, this is a different type of bong than another one called Ying Bong (or eagle bong), which has a raised elbow & straight wrist and is typically used for line shifting (contact point typically at the wrist). Different time/space & usage, but it can also transition into fwd/diving finger strike given the correct circumstance without first having to turn into something else.

    They can be both be seen in our 3rd section of SNT below. This later Ying/Eagle Bong is @4:31 raising low to high and the coiling/penetrating Hok/Crane Bong follows shortly after @4:34 (the third that I didn't mention, Laan Bong, is seen @4:39)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4R9n-zn3I
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 07-09-2015 at 02:32 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Sorry, but my understanding and application of the Bong would not entail using it to deliver a strike or the like.
    In my mind this would be something different and no longer be a Bong.

    Of course, I am open to discussing how a Bong can be used to deliver a strike without it becoming an Elbow strike.
    In my WC/WT we had several differing elbow strikes from various angles.
    In one of the Chi Sections we had a trap using the elbow but it was not a Bong, despite the shape being somewhat similar.
    I wasn't referring to bong being used to strike, although it probably could be used as an elbow, forearm, palm, or finger strike. I was referring specificly to bong being used to transfer energy into the opponent center axis to disrupt his center of gravity as master TST explains in the video below. My intention is always to attack the opponent's center line, however If the incoming momentum is so great that it's too much for my structure to handle or sustain, the incoming momentum will turn or adjust the angle of my bong sideways to guide it, much like a bullfighter dealing with the oncoming momentum rush of a charging bull or what happens when two spinning momentum make contact ie two spinning tops.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNRgatQXeZg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWggfQrN-lQ
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 07-10-2015 at 11:30 AM.

  15. #15
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    Hmm, am I in the right place, seems like we are having an actual decent conversation????
    Maybe I have crossed into a parallel universe.

    Okay, to clarify;

    When I do a Bong there is always forward energy but my goal is to not give enough for my opponent to really feel or utilize.
    It will "spring" forward on its own but this is not something I would do on my own.

    The way I do Bong is to use it as a deflection and not to try and meet force with it, I know that is not what you guys are saying.
    For me to utilize something to "break structure" I would most likely utilize a Lan. In some instances the shape of the Lan would change slightly due to the energy given and sometimes the elbow would go up slightly. I have had some think that this was now a Bong but it was not.

    I am at work so I will need to watch the video later.

    I can accept that there are different ways to do Bong and my only caveat is that, IMHO, if you use the Bong to exert force of any real degree it is no longer a Bong. At least not in how I do it.

    My goal is to give my opponent as little as possible to turn around against me. Of course this is easier said than done.

    I have said this before but I read in Living the Martial Way and agree with the following:

    There are only three (3) ways to deal with any attack:

    Avoid
    Evade
    Intercept

    Actually enjoying the discussion[/LIST]
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

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