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Thread: Bong never stays

  1. #16
    Nice topic! IMO the hands of WC can be / are both yin and yang qualities where and when needed, depending on the circumstances and the opponent, the energies involved, tactical distance/range, etc. The hands (and by extension the legs) can be both offensive and defensive. For example, a Bong can be used to momentarily pin, just as easily as it can be used to ram into a rib cage by mobilizing the horse. Water can flow, wear down, crash, etc depending on its state of being. A Tan can be ran into by the opponents attack, or the Tan can go out and meet the attack (attacking the attack) using whipping power, shock power, or combination of both depending on timing, balance, speed, (whatever is required at that time to shut down/annihilate the adversary).
    Good conversation (so far).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hmm, am I in the right place, seems like we are having an actual decent conversation????
    That's cause all the trouble makers went over to martial talk forum, once there are new interesting threads over here they will be dying to post here again. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    When I do a Bong there is always forward energy but my goal is to not give enough for my opponent to really feel or utilize.
    It will "spring" forward on its own but this is not something I would do on my own. The way I do Bong is to use it as a deflection and not to try and meet force with it, I know that is not what you guys are saying.

    For me to utilize something to "break structure" I would most likely utilize a Lan. In some instances the shape of the Lan would change slightly due to the energy given and sometimes the elbow would go up slightly. I have had some think that this was now a Bong but it was not.

    I am at work so I will need to watch the video later.
    Sounds like we are speaking about very similar things. The only difference I can see is that I use my bong with a springy spiral/helical force to attack the opponent's center axis or to guide his momentum based on his given force therefore none of my joints are ever tense while doing this, and my bong never feels like it's exerting force of any real degree or meeting force with force therefore my opponent has nothing to feel or utilize. Due to it's spiraling nature my bong utilizes centrifugal and centripetal forces to either repel or guide the incoming momentum along a curved path. Once you watch the video it will make my view more clear. in addition to the video all my wing chun techniques have this gyroscopic momentum winding, entangling, wrapping nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I can accept that there are different ways to do Bong
    Kung fu is like an onion, there are many layers of doing things, what I discribed above is the layer that I used to use based on my own 25 years of trial and error experience, now I use the force flow layer which is on a different level. Now I do things quite differently compare to what I discribed above, but if you ask me again in 25 years I am quite sure it will be completely different again. I don't believe there are different ways of doing things in wing chun, only in layers of understanding based on one's experience in the art and how many layers they have peeled back lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Nice topic! IMO the hands of WC can be / are both yin and yang qualities where and when needed, depending on the circumstances and the opponent, the energies involved, tactical distance/range, etc. The hands (and by extension the legs) can be both offensive and defensive.
    All the hands of my wc has yin and yang qualities intertwined simultaneously, therefore defence is built into my offence. There is no need to defend with one hand while attacking with the other as is classicly seen as lin siu dai da in most wing chun linages, each of my hand has the ability to attack and defend itself simultaneously.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 07-10-2015 at 11:49 AM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    There is no need to defend with one hand while attacking with the other as is classicly seen as lin siu dai da in most wing chun linages, each of my hand has the ability to attack and defend itself simultaneously.
    I think its great that you think you are so highly skilled you only need to use one arm to defend and attack with. But, you'd have to be practically psychic to pull it off. So, if what you say is true, why at about 5:27 in this video do you use pak sao with one hand and punch with the other? It kind of goes against what you said above (in bold).

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    I think its great that you think you are so highly skilled you only need to use one arm to defend and attack with. But, you'd have to be practically psychic to pull it off.
    Highly skilled is always relative, remember I said different layers of an onion. no need to be psychic, you just need a certain type of force/energy within your bridge to be able to pull it off.

    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    So, if what you say is true, why at about 5:27 in this video do you use pak sao with one hand and punch with the other? It kind of goes against what you said above (in bold).
    If you are referring to my force flow video made in 2014, the main focus of the video was to show the difference between elbow force and force flow types of power generation. I didn't specificly showed how to use one arm to defend and attack with on there, perhaps I will make another video in the future to demonstrate this along with other stuff.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 07-11-2015 at 04:21 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    I think its great that you think you are so highly skilled you only need to use one arm to defend and attack with. But, you'd have to be practically psychic to pull it off.
    Simply punch in such a way that your arm cuts off your opponent's attack while your fist strikes them. There you go; simultaneous attack and defense with one arm. Basic, day 1 stuff at any good school...

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Highly skilled is always relative, remember I said different layers of an onion. no need to be physic, you just need a certain type of force/energy within your bridge to be able to pull it off.
    ...and impeccable timing

    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    If you are referring to my force flow video made in 2014, the main focus of the video was to show the difference between elbow force and force flow types of power generation. I didn't specificly showed how to use one arm to defend and attack with on there, perhaps I will make another video in the future to demonstrate this along with other stuff.
    Oops! Sorry. Just realized I forgot to paste the link.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Simply punch in such a way that your arm cuts off your opponent's attack while your fist strikes them. There you go; simultaneous attack and defense with one arm. Basic, day 1 stuff at any good school...
    Yeah, I know what it is, and how to apply it / use it, etc. I agree it is very basic day 1 stuff. It's just that the way KFF phrased it came across a little arrogant as if he only needs one hand/arm to defeat his adversary when most humans are born with two. That's all I was driving at. No worries.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Simply punch in such a way that your arm cuts off your opponent's attack while your fist strikes them. There you go; simultaneous attack and defense with one arm. Basic, day 1 stuff at any good school...
    This is a basic way of doing it without the energetics that I use, or what I refer to as the outer layer of the onion at 2:37 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_9Wd4g1-Ek

    My energetics is closer to What master TST was explaining in the bong sau video that I posted earlier, but with some additional components.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 07-11-2015 at 11:32 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    This is a basic way of doing it without the energetics that I use, or what I refer to as the outer layer of the onion at 2:37 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_9Wd4g1-Ek
    Not quite! He says his punch doesn't get in. It was thrown as an attack but became a defense. And that's what he calls "simultaneous attack and defense", because any action could end up as either depending on the circumstance, like flipping a coin. To him, simultaneous attack and defense just refers to that potential in any action to serve one or the other function.

    His idea of simultaneous attack and defense means what you throw as an attack may become a defense, or what you throw up as a defense may become an attack. He said you can't flip "headstails", but only heads or tails, but since it's still one coin somehow that's simultaneous? His definition makes 0 sense.

    It actually means he doesn't believe in "simultaneous" attack and defense, as in achieving both functions simultaneously in a single action, but only in any action having the possibility of ending up as either one or the other.

    That's not the same thing at all...

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    ...and impeccable timing.
    I agree! you do need very good intercepting timing to be able to do it in a fight, but that's why we train. without good timing no fighting system works. lol


    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Simply punch in such a way that your arm cuts off your opponent's attack while your fist strikes them. There you go; simultaneous attack and defense with one arm. Basic, day 1 stuff at any good school...
    I agree with what you wrote here in regards to a basic way of applying simultaneous attack and defense with one arm. The way I apply it is closer to What master TST was explaining in the bong sau video that I posted earlier, but with some additional components.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Not quite! He says his punch doesn't get in. It was thrown as an attack but became a defense. And that's what he calls "simultaneous attack and defense", because any action could end up as either depending on the circumstance, like flipping a coin. To him, simultaneous attack and defense just refers to that potential in any action to serve one or the other function.

    His idea of simultaneous attack and defense means what you throw as an attack may become a defense, or what you throw up as a defense may become an attack. He said you can't flip "headstails", but only heads or tails, but since it's still one coin somehow that's simultaneous? His definition makes 0 sense.

    It actually means he doesn't believe in "simultaneous" attack and defense, as in achieving both functions simultaneously in a single action, but only in any action having the possibility of ending up as either one or the other.

    That's not the same thing at all...
    I took a quick look at the clip without really analyzing in depth what he was saying. After taking a another look you are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Yeah, I know what it is, and how to apply it / use it, etc. I agree it is very basic day 1 stuff. It's just that the way KFF phrased it came across a little arrogant as if he only needs one hand/arm to defeat his adversary when most humans are born with two. That's all I was driving at. No worries.
    No, I didn't mean that at all! I was just explaining that all my wck techniques use this type of bult in one hand simultaneous attack and defence by default not just the cut punch, as opposed to what is commonly seen using two hands.

  11. #26
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    To comment on "bong never stays" from my p.o.v., this is first learned in SNT where bong immediately recovers to punching position. Then in DCS we do the same with a partner's arm for reference of how to perform the bong then immediately drop the elbow to recover to punching position.

    In application, bong is a sudden, jolting slap, like a paak from the elbow when we don't have room to use the arm at length. The desired result is to affect the opponent's facing and open a line for the wu to continue into a central line sweeping punch as bong immediately drops the elbow to recover and cut punch again.

    All this should happen in a nanosecond. If bong fails to recover fast enough, we won't be sustaining a watertight flow of attacks, and the opponent may have an opportunity to recover, intercept, and exploit our position. So, bong never stays. It should barely be seen even by an onlooker.

    Oh, and in reply to the original post, other "hands" like taan and fuk are just training tools for developing the punch and are not taken into a fight. Of course, a punch never stays, except in bad technique demos.
    Last edited by LFJ; 07-11-2015 at 11:25 PM.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    To comment on "bong never stays" from my p.o.v., this is first learned in SNT where bong immediately recovers to punching position. Then in DCS we do the same with a partner's arm for reference of how to perform the bong then immediately drop the elbow to recover to punching position.

    In application, bong is a sudden, jolting slap, like a paak from the elbow when we don't have room to use the arm at length. The desired result is to affect the opponent's facing and open a line for the wu to continue into a central line sweeping punch as bong immediately drops the elbow to recover and cut punch again.

    All this should happen in a nanosecond. If bong fails to recover fast enough, we won't be sustaining a watertight flow of attacks, and the opponent may have an opportunity to recover, intercept, and exploit our position. So, bong never stays. It should barely be seen even by an onlooker.

    Oh, and in reply to the original post, other "hands" like taan and fuk are just training tools for developing the punch and are not taken into a fight. Of course, a punch never stays, except in bad technique demos.
    I agree with this. Hell of a lot of different ideas here.

  13. #28

    Bong to the Inside Gate

    Great stuff.I'm interested in every ones opinion on the use of bong Sau within the inner gate and its relationship to this topic.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  14. #29

    Tsui Sheung Tin Bong Sau

    It is interesting that TST is referenced. In my learning curve.Sijo Leung Ting style has the softest bong coupled with side body reference and deep shift, it presents a trap door into a void. Sigong Wong Shun house taught me the value of minimalist bong certainly loose and fleeting and coupled closely to angling and small foot work. Sigong Tsui Sheung Tin presented quite a different roll for bong. Comparatively a much more aggressive and sticky tool. A bouncy ,resilient structure. You an open up some one like a can opener with it.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  15. #30

    Bong Sau To Inside Gate

    Soooo, I wonder about the use of bong as an follow up action hidden behind asking hand. This strategy often unfolds itself from cross armed bong sau ( inside gate.) There is argument in this thread for this but it is some thing I don't play usually...except in exceptional circumstances
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

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