Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo

[friedrice]

Did Aldo fight in the early UFC? No, so why even bring that up? The post is about the UFC and its current rules NOW! Sheeeesh!

Just to show how comical eye jabs are when trying to talk about combat training (although, with the exception of women who are training to fight off rapists). I mean, did you at one time, pay some dude money to teach you how to poke another dude in the eye or grab and squeeze his balls?

[SifuYui]

If it's so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I've never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?

[friedrice]

If it's so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I've never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?

I guess you really don't understand why so now I have to explain it to you rather than have you read between the lines. There are many reasons. One being that while an eye poke is effective, you make it sound like no one else knows how to do it except the lame TMA, too deadly for sports, BS people. I already told you that's it's just throwing a jab with the fingers extended. You think some fat Kung-Fu guy is going to be faster and more powerful than a UFC fighter or Pro Boxer at jabbing. Then there's footwork, head movement, slipping, etc. that's superior in Boxing.

Now one of the other reasons that fights are stopped (temporarily or ended) once there's even a slight eye poke....is OBVIOUSLY, to gain sympathy so that the other guy could be in danger of a loss of point for the next time or even a DQ. Whether it's a fight for $0 or $1 million, it's all part of the game because the other guy violated the rules and the guy harmed, should always try to get the most out of it. Especially if it's a title fight for MILLIONS, of course he's going to complain. But in a street fight or some BS fight to the death, fantasy scenario....you think that a UFC fighters is jsut going to drop into fetal position and cry from an eye poke?

And there are many other reasons. But what's comical is that you think that eye poking is some kind of nuclear weapon or something that no one else can do, and do much better....because you know...they're athletes maybe?

[SifuYui]

Ummm, yeeeeaaaahhh riiiiiight. Except I never said that (there really should be a reading comprehension requirement to post a reply).

Well, I'm done feeding the troll.

I apologize for derailing the thread MysticNinjaJay.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Honestly we shouldn't even be talking by eye poking. Remember the rules, no cheating. I put that in there for a reason, so we could eliminate factors that would distract from a real fight. This is an ideal fight. UFC rules. Jose Aldo vs. Bruce Lee and it's a clean fight.

[friedrice]

Ummm, yeeeeaaaahhh riiiiiight. Except I never said that (there really should be a reading comprehension requirement to post a reply).

Well, I'm done feeding the troll.

I apologize for derailing the thread MysticNinjaJay.

You just can't make any further arguments, so now you play the typical Troll Card. I guess the truth hurts the most when someone points out that you train women's anti-rape tactics and thinks it requires skills that only fat, chubby people can pull off.

[friedrice]

Honestly we shouldn't even be talking by eye poking. Remember the rules, no cheating. I put that in there for a reason, so we could eliminate factors that would distract from a real fight. This is an ideal fight. UFC rules. Jose Aldo vs. Bruce Lee and it's a clean fight.

Aldo would destroy Bruce Lee standing up....and even worse on the ground. Bruce Lee couldn't even beat Jack Man Wong with his eye and throat strikes. Lee posted flyers all around Chinatown challenging people to fight, because he's was a street bully, always looking to make a name for himself (this part I like about him). Wong, who was basically a Kung-Fu nobody who worked as a waiter and teaching Kung-Fu to like 3 students on the side, answered the challenge, thinking that it was a SPORTY/FRIENDLY sparring match....until Lee immediately tried to eye jab Wong as Wong extended his hand to "touch gloves" first. Wong said Lee was trying to kill him....but Wong wanted to keep it friendly and didn't use his "devastating kicks"....which just means that they were both Kung-Fu bull****ters and it's uncertain who won that fight as we get conflicting stories from both sides. And I'm not going to take Lee's wife's word for it. Other fight accomplishments of Bruce Lee, includes......punching out an "unruly stagehand", haha.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Aldo would destroy Bruce Lee standing up....and even worse on the ground. Bruce Lee couldn't even beat Jack Man Wong with his eye and throat strikes. Lee posted flyers all around Chinatown challenging people to fight, because he's was a street bully, always looking to make a name for himself (this part I like about him). Wong, who was basically a Kung-Fu nobody who worked as a waiter and teaching Kung-Fu to like 3 students on the side, answered the challenge, thinking that it was a SPORTY/FRIENDLY sparring match....until Lee immediately tried to eye jab Wong as Wong extended his hand to "touch gloves" first. Wong said Lee was trying to kill him....but Wong wanted to keep it friendly and didn't use his "devastating kicks"....which just means that they were both Kung-Fu bull****ters and it's uncertain who won that fight as we get conflicting stories from both sides. And I'm not going to take Lee's wife's word for it. Other fight accomplishments of Bruce Lee, includes......punching out an "unruly stagehand", haha.

I agree that Aldo would win standing or on the ground. As far as Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man is concerned I read Showdown in Oakland, it had a lot of interesting claims. For starters it seems that the fight occurred because Bruce Lee made an open challenge at the Sung Sing Theater in San Francisco's Chinatown for any Chinese Martial Artist in the area to fight him. I've never heard of him creating flyers this appears to have been a verbal challenge after Bruce Lee was embarrassed on stage having given a failed Martial Arts demonstration. The fight itself as you know had conflicting accounts. Bruce Lee says it ended in decisive victory for him. According to his wife Linda the fight lasted about 3 minutes, Wong Jack Man ran away after a brief exchange and Bruce Lee chased him around but tired himself out in the process. Eventually he caught him took him to the ground and pounded him until he verbally submitted. But according to Wong Jack Man the fight lasted 20-25 minutes and ended in a draw.

Personally I find Bruce Lee's account to be more credible. He claims he won but admits to flaws in his own strategy as he gassed and bruised his hands punching the back of Wong Jack Man's head. Bruce realizing that Wing Chun was ineffective decided to improve his Martial Arts training and developed Jeet Kune Do. A 3 minute fight sounds more realistic than a 20-25 minute fight for a no rules challenge match. What were they doing for 20-25 minutes? I also don't think it's credible that Wong Jack Man treated the fight like a friendly sparring match and Bruce Lee took it so seriously he acted as if he was trying to kill Wong. Wong Jack Man's refusal to use deadly kicks is also not credible. Also in Showdown in Oakland it says that Wong Jack Man claimed in the newspaper that Bruce Lee punched at him about 60 times and kicked at him about 25 times. Wong didn't say how many times he tried to strike Bruce. That doesn't sound believable that he could count the number of strikes over the course of 20-25 minutes either. I do find it curious that Wong Jack Man said in the newspaper that he would fight Bruce Lee in a rematch at a public exhibition to settle matters but Bruce Lee never accepted the challenge.

Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo. Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms. His family says he got in a lot of street fights as a kid. So apparently he had some fighting experience but not enough full-contact challenge matches against credible opponents to be a match for modern MMA fighters like Jose Aldo.

[Krottyman]

Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo. Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms. His family says he got in a lot of street fights as a kid. So apparently he had some fighting experience but not enough full-contact challenge matches against credible opponents to be a match for modern MMA fighters like Jose Aldo.

Focusing on this part specifically. Honestly, Bruce definitely has the right attitude and enthusiasm for something like MMA. Give him training time, have him be relatively young in the early UFCs and he probably would've been a pretty good lightweight, possibly a match for Aldo.

In Enter the Dragon he performs a (relatively poor) armbar, indicating that while he wasn't excelling at it, but he was learning. I think in one of his interviews he said something about hating competition because of rules. It sounds like an excuse today but the way he spoke in those interviews it sounded more like he didn't like the lack of contact so to speak. But the early UFCs would've suited his desires just fine and he might ave trained extensively for that format if he was the right age for it. (I say that because he would've been in 53-54ish then.)

Dig him out of the grave now and tell him he's fighting Aldo with zero prep time, however, I'd doubt he'd last long.


This is really sort of pointless, anyway. Bruce was a tough guy, in great shape, an inspiration for many (including many MMA fighters) and that would be enough to kick any of our asses. But he is an actor first and foremost, and there is no shame in that seeing how he was one of the first Asian American movie stars and if you ask me that is a much bigger accomplishment than winning a Karate tournament.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Focusing on this part specifically. Honestly, Bruce definitely has the right attitude and enthusiasm for something like MMA. Give him training time, have him be relatively young in the early UFCs and he probably would've been a pretty good lightweight, possibly a match for Aldo.

In Enter the Dragon he performs a (relatively poor) armbar, indicating that while he wasn't excelling at it, but he was learning. I think in one of his interviews he said something about hating competition because of rules. It sounds like an excuse today but the way he spoke in those interviews it sounded more like he didn't like the lack of contact so to speak. But the early UFCs would've suited his desires just fine and he might ave trained extensively for that format if he was the right age for it. (I say that because he would've been in 53-54ish then.)

Dig him out of the grave now and tell him he's fighting Aldo with zero prep time, however, I'd doubt he'd last long.


This is really sort of pointless, anyway. Bruce was a tough guy, in great shape, an inspiration for many (including many MMA fighters) and that would be enough to kick any of our asses. But he is an actor first and foremost, and there is no shame in that seeing how he was one of the first Asian American movie stars and if you ask me that is a much bigger accomplishment than winning a Karate tournament.

With prep time I think this becomes a different conversation. I agree that Bruce Lee had the right attitude for MMA. He had the athleticism and intelligence to be a great fighter. I say give him 1-2 years to train for MMA and he becomes a competent Mixed Martial Artist. I think he'd need a few fights before he is ready to challenge Aldo but it would be interesting to see what Bruce Lee could do with preparation. I agree that what he accomplished in life was very significant to Martial Arts culture. We might not have MMA if it weren't for Bruce Lee's influence.

[Krottyman]

With prep time I think this becomes a different conversation. I agree that Bruce Lee had the right attitude for MMA. He had the athleticism and intelligence to be a great fighter. I say give him 1-2 years to train for MMA and he becomes a competent Mixed Martial Artist. I think he'd need a few fights before he is ready to challenge Aldo but it would be interesting to see what Bruce Lee could do with preparation. I agree that what he accomplished in life was very significant to Martial Arts culture. We might not have MMA if it weren't for Bruce Lee's influence.

I don't know about not having MMA without Bruce Lee (though we definitely had the audience thanks at least in part to him).

He would definitely need a few fights under his belt but with that MMA training he will definitely stand a much better chance.

[friedrice]

I've never heard of him creating flyers this appears to have been a verbal challenge after Bruce Lee was embarrassed on stage having given a failed Martial Arts demonstration.

It's been a while since I read these accounts. But good stuff that you're adding. I recall that Bruce Lee was trying to make a name for himself by issuing challenges. Flyers sounds like a simple thing to do.

Personally I find Bruce Lee's account to be more credible. He claims he won but admits to flaws in his own strategy as he gassed and bruised his hands punching the back of Wong Jack Man's head. Bruce realizing that Wing Chun was ineffective decided to improve his Martial Arts training and developed Jeet Kune Do.

I think I agree with you that it probably went, somewhat, Bruce Lee's way. But I also believe that Wong came there thinking that it was a sporty match and Lee started immediately with the anti-rape eye pokes and nut strikes to put the guy down. Yea, Bruce probably beat him....but who was Wong at that time anyway, nobody really. Now not to take away from his accomplishments later on in life as a SIFU with his own lineage up to today, so I'm not trying to insult him.

There was an account by a Chinese journalist who said he saw Wong the next day, working his normal job as a waiter at the cafe and he wasn't wrecked or anything from the fight. Just a slight abrasion near his eyes from what seems to be a woman or Bruce Lee's scratching. Of course, I added the part about the "woman" scratching

Anyway this thread is about Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo.

I think that examining Bruce Lee's fight experience, really shows that he wasn't very good. There's a video of him hitting a punching bag, and wasn't very impressive.

Bruce Lee had other alleged fighting exploits including winning an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong, defeating the 3 time champion of the event Gary Elms.

As I recall, this was some Amateur event at the High School level, so about 18 and under. To begin with, I don't think that Hong Kong was ever the scene for Boxing, ever. So whoever Gary Elms was, that he beat Chinese kids at Boxing in Hong Kong, I doubt it was that big of an accomplishment. Whatever Boxing training that Bruce Lee had at that time, it couldn't have been very good since his main MA was Wing Chun and he was pretty distraught by its effectiveness vs. Wong that he kind of renounced WC and started training Western Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

[friedrice]

I don't know about not having MMA without Bruce Lee (though we definitely had the audience thanks at least in part to him).

Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

[Krottyman]

Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

Honestly thinking of MMA as a "new thing" of any kind, in any era, is incredibly dumb. I mean, think about it.

Muay Thai is a modern product of millions of Thai fighters coming together to make a living fighting for money. I'd be surprised if there weren't originally dozens of fighting styles that make up what we see now, at least half of which might be dead (the rest being taught privately or as part of Buddhist monk practice).

Taekwondo is a Korean interpretation of Shotokan Karate.

Kung Fu masters who competed in the Leitai took up training methods from boxing and Judo and they themselves contributed to the formation of the KMT's Sanda (and before the Cultural Revolution they probably did the same for the PRC's Sanda).

SAMBO from Russia is primarily Judo with Russian folk wrestling.

Kuntao is when Kung Fu and Silat met. Silat destroys Kung Fu, Kung Fu destroys Silat, two keep mixing until they become indistinguishable.

etc. etc.

Every culture that cares about having an effective fighting style knows they can't shop in their own house for techniques. If they want to win fights with styles they've never seen before, they have to take a few pointers from people they lost to.

I will say that for our era MMA is definitely the culmination of that though.


As for your comments on Bruce Lee thinking his WC was ineffective:

I'm not a huge fan of Wing Chun either but I doubt he crosstrained because he felt that his art didn't work. As far as I recall, his JKD cirriculum (ironic, as he hated the idea of a defined "style") still had some Wing Chun concepts in them. So when people say that frankly I don't think that holds water. Plus, there are photos of him doing Chi Sao with people he taught, why would he teach anything related to WC if he thought it was crap? That goes against his entire life philosophy.

[MysticNinjaJay]

It's been a while since I read these accounts. But good stuff that you're adding. I recall that Bruce Lee was trying to make a name for himself by issuing challenges. Flyers sounds like a simple thing to do.

I have actually heard your claim before I just haven't heard of a source. I read Showdown in Oakland which had a lot of interesting insights on the fight including Bruce Lee's verbal challenge at a theater which found its way to Wong Jack Man.

I think I agree with you that it probably went, somewhat, Bruce Lee's way. But I also believe that Wong came there thinking that it was a sporty match and Lee started immediately with the anti-rape eye pokes and nut strikes to put the guy down. Yea, Bruce probably beat him....but who was Wong at that time anyway, nobody really. Now not to take away from his accomplishments later on in life as a SIFU with his own lineage up to today, so I'm not trying to insult him.

Based on what I read in Showdown in Oakland it does seem that Wong Jack Man thought they were going to spar while Bruce Lee was trying to seriously hurt him. I think this scenario is entirely plausible. In the world of fighting Wong Jack Man was nobody but as a Martial Artist he was a young master so I think Bruce Lee deserves a little credit. This wasn't an untrained opponent he was facing.

There was an account by a Chinese journalist who said he saw Wong the next day, working his normal job as a waiter at the cafe and he wasn't wrecked or anything from the fight. Just a slight abrasion near his eyes from what seems to be a woman or Bruce Lee's scratching. Of course, I added the part about the "woman" scratching

This is also mentioned in Showdown in Oakland. The man in question according to Rick Wing who witnessed the scratch was Grandmaster Ming Lum.

I think that examining Bruce Lee's fight experience, really shows that he wasn't very good. There's a video of him hitting a punching bag, and wasn't very impressive.

I don't make too much out of the punching bag footage. I don't think we can know Bruce Lee's true level without seeing him fight. What we can see is that he was in great athletic condition, trained hard and had a good philosophy on Martial Arts.

As I recall, this was some Amateur event at the High School level, so about 18 and under. To begin with, I don't think that Hong Kong was ever the scene for Boxing, ever. So whoever Gary Elms was, that he beat Chinese kids at Boxing in Hong Kong, I doubt it was that big of an accomplishment. Whatever Boxing training that Bruce Lee had at that time, it couldn't have been very good since his main MA was Wing Chun and he was pretty distraught by its effectiveness vs. Wong that he kind of renounced WC and started training Western Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

Certainly this fight didn't mean much in the world of Boxing but it is significant that Bruce Lee beat a local Boxing champion. It means he had some talent.

Yea, there was Bartisu, developed in the late 1900's, combining different styles of MA.

Then there was Mitsuyo Maeda, who was an international fighter who supposed to have had 2000+ fights, many were No Holds Barred. Then he taught the Gracies, who in their own right, challenged and fought NHB/Vale Tudo for nearly 100 years in Brazil.

Bruce Lee certainly was influential in all forms of MA with lots of myths and legends added...inspiring many masters and champions, no doubt.

When I said that without Bruce Lee there might not be MMA I was referring to how he had popularized Martial Arts. Maybe MMA would still exist but Martial Arts would probably not be as popular as it is today.

As for your comments on Bruce Lee thinking his WC was ineffective:

I'm not a huge fan of Wing Chun either but I doubt he crosstrained because he felt that his art didn't work. As far as I recall, his JKD cirriculum (ironic, as he hated the idea of a defined "style") still had some Wing Chun concepts in them. So when people say that frankly I don't think that holds water. Plus, there are photos of him doing Chi Sao with people he taught, why would he teach anything related to WC if he thought it was crap? That goes against his entire life philosophy.

Based on his interview in Black Belt Magazine it seems that Bruce Lee thought Wing Chun was impractical after the Wong Jack Man fight and decided to change his approach to fighting. I think it's more proper to say that he augmented his fighting style rather than outright disavowing Wing Chun because as you said he still practiced some Wing Chun concepts.