Why is Lineage so important to some people?

[Wuxia007]

When I read threads with this sort of heading it usually means this:
The person in question probably just finished watching 4 or 5 youtube videos and feels they should open a school. They then come onto sites and forums like this posting the "does lineage really matter?" question because they're looking for validation.

Guess what? it does. If you can't prove a legitimate lineage and have no one to back up your claim outside of your kwoon - you're bullsh*t. End of story.

I watched 8 YouTube videos.

[MightyB]

I watched 8 YouTube videos.

D@mnnn - that makes you Sijo!




<Too funny Wuxia007, I almost spit coffee out my nose on that one.>

[-N-]

D@mnnn - that makes you Sijo!




<Too funny Wuxia007, I almost spit coffee out my nose on that one.>

If you post a video after, then you are a Grand Ultimate Si Whatever.

[Mor Sao]

It does work as an analogy. He's saying that lineage helps you to know the reputation for the value of the instruction that you'll get. He's saying that even though you can learn engineering skills at both a community college or MIT, MIT has the better reputation - this reputation is based on the level of instruction and the skills that you'll be required to learn... i.e. the curriculum. And people outside of those institutions would be willing to pay more to employees who went through MIT's verified curriculum.

Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction.

umm, no.

most MA teachers in the past in China were illiterate. Had no education other than what they were taught by their teachers.

You cannot compare colleges to MA training. Does not work. Apples and oranges.

Again, lineage offers nothing, absolutely nothing to your training. Other than historical relevance of knowing where your material came from.

Too many people worry about lineage versus asking themselves 3 questions:

1. What is the technique?

2. What is it for?

3. How do I train it and apply it.

Met too many fools who pander their lineage as if it helps them fight or train. Too many idiots out there who practice forms they do not know how to use, but keep teaching these forms for rank yet have no idea what the forms are for or how to use them.

If they have a MIT degree they should be strung up for wasting peoples hard earned money and time.

Train better, and put the whole lineage thing on the back burner. Lineage is part of life, but has nothing to do with training.

[Krottyman]

umm, no.

most MA teachers in the past in China were illiterate. Had no education other than what they were taught by their teachers.

You cannot compare colleges to MA training. Does not work. Apples and oranges.

While I agree with most of your post, are you certain this excerpt from this quote is true?

There is an awful amount of literature from famous practitioners compiled and translated in recent years. For example, I heard that Qi Jiguang's writings had a lot of information on old weapons forms; with this we've become aware of many Kung Fu styles that are either extinct or have their sets incorporated into modern styles. Military exams in the Qing Dynasty contain some literacy tests.

Then again I suppose in his era he was an exception, not the rule.

Edit: heh my phone. Blame my sausage fingers

[Krottyman]

Whoops, meant to add to the discussion itself as well- a bit long, apologies in advance.

When I was shopping for Kung Fu schools near me I tried to look at the Lineage information of the instructors, sometimes digging up photos to confirm existence of said lineages. I know it's not a guarantee of effectiveness but I still really desire that of a school.

Why?
-Many teachers have left China. I'd imagine a good chunk are in Taiwan, but it still motivates me to find anyone in the States. No doubt they've taught folks abroad. Even if they are no longer alive, or no longer widely teaching, I still see a lot of value in their presence here for cultural reasons.

-I took a Taichi College class without having done any research on the instructor. In retrospect, her forms were great and she was in better shape than me for sure, but Wushu wasn't what I wanted and might have given me wrong ideas about Taichi. Sure enough, I saw the Kung Fu Quest episode on Tai Chi and the training looked nothing alike. It also convinced me that Tai Chi could be used for self defense far more than my teacher did. (I still remember her telling us at our final class before our forms "exam": "Tai Chi is a complete martial art. You have Karate, Jujitsu, Taekwondo, but Tai Chi is complete and can be used very well for self defense. Just be patient." Cause, you know, forms and showing us applications while never letting us practice it = self defense).

But then I hear of guys like Tim Cartmell, David Ross, Stuart Shaw, etc. who have learned from the former.

Call me a a Romanticist/Naive Idiot, I guess. Being Chinese myself I've gotten a touch jealous of their backgrounds (not that being Chinese is insurance against fraud). I mean, I can find a TKD studio everywhere I can find a Starbucks, if only I could find something of a similar ilk for Kung Fu (well, good ones, anyway).

Edits: Sausauge fingers; had to proofread on laptop. Plus a few things added

[bawang]

the problem with made up kung fu lineage is those guys ask for money to learn from them. if they teach their made up sh1t for free nobody would care

[Krottyman]

the problem with made up kung fu lineage is those guys ask for money to learn from them. if they teach their made up sh1t for free nobody would care

Haha well time is money :P

[bawang]

Haha well time is money :P

maybe u will find this interesting, theres bad blood between karate and fujian kung fu ppl because of lineage. the big karate families know exactly where their karate came from but been playing dumb and denying for over 80 years now. i guess ppl get mad over lineage cuz its sort of like stealing intellectual property.

[Krottyman]

Yep, I'm aware of the connection. I saw Kung Fu quest- White Crane- sone folks do attribute their lineage to a master in China, there's debate as to whether their ancetor was indeed Chinese or just someone who learned from China.

But the Bubishi (Karate "bible") is pretty good proof that the Chinese influence is there, no doubt about it. So Karateka can deny their heritage all they want the evidence gives credit where it's due.

Wasn't aware of bad blood though, I am visiting China next year, may have to visit Fujian and see for myself

[bawang]

Wasn't aware of bad blood though, I am visiting China next year, may have to visit Fujian and see for myself

the gist of it is most of the styles tracked down descendants of their masters in the 1970s and got a bunch of info but went back to japan pretending nothing happened. the fujian guys were mad they didnt get any money. then 80s came and govt started upping the anti japan sentiments and the fujian ppl cut off contact. as far as i understand the white crane guys are unrelated and are just tricking japanese "karate pilgrims" for money

[Kellen Bassette]

I always heard that Karate came from Kung Fu, specifically Fujian Kung Fu, wasn't aware of any traditional Karate that denied that. The actual lineage could be a bit murky since Karate comes from a mish mash of different Okinawanized Kung Fu systems.

[bawang]

I always heard that Karate came from Kung Fu, specifically Fujian Kung Fu, wasn't aware of any traditional Karate that denied that. The actual lineage could be a bit murky since Karate comes from a mish mash of different Okinawanized Kung Fu systems.

karate lineage is actually pretty clear and straightforward. shotokan related styles came from uncle wang. every other style came from a mr liu at the ryukyu embassy in beijing. uechi ryu founder learned from mr liu's student zhou zihe.
miyagi trained with yang zhaoshui in 1915

[Jimbo]

It seemed to me that the karate people most interested in researching their arts' Chinese origins tended to be Okinawan stylists from Uechi-ryu, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc. This seemed to hit a peak in the 80s or 90s.

During the late 70s, I trained for about 18 months under a Shi-to-ryu sensei from Japan. He always admitted that karate's origins came from China, but he had a very anti-Chinese and anti-CMA attitude, and so did some of his top students. And being ABJ (American-born Japanese) myself, he sort of expected me to share his views, which he only expressed occasionally. He was a big guy with outstanding fighting and teaching ability (the reason I wanted to learn from him), but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

[Kellen Bassette]

Miyagi studied in China, but his primary teacher was Kanryo Higashionna.Higashionna is supposed to have learned from Ryu Ryuko, so you have at least two different Chinese influences there. That's what I mean by murky. These guys didn't study one Gong Fu system and pass it down, they studied with several different instructors and practiced Okinawan Te, which was most likely a mixed bag of CMAs to begin with.