Why is Lineage so important to some people?

[bawang]

but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

this is basically how they rustled the fujian kung fu poples jimmies

Miyagi studied in China, but his primary teacher was Kanryo Higashionna.Higashionna is supposed to have learned from Ryu Ryuko,

miyagi was in fujian for 1 year and he made modifications from the time he spent there

These guys didn't study one Gong Fu system and pass it down, they studied with several different instructors and practiced Okinawan Te, which was most likely a mixed bag of CMAs to begin with.

no they literally learned one gong fu system

[Krottyman]

It seemed to me that the karate people most interested in researching their arts' Chinese origins tended to be Okinawan stylists from Uechi-ryu, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc. This seemed to hit a peak in the 80s or 90s.

During the late 70s, I trained for about 18 months under a Shi-to-ryu sensei from Japan. He always admitted that karate's origins came from China, but he had a very anti-Chinese and anti-CMA attitude, and so did some of his top students. And being ABJ (American-born Japanese) myself, he sort of expected me to share his views, which he only expressed occasionally. He was a big guy with outstanding fighting and teaching ability (the reason I wanted to learn from him), but when he said certain things, I felt a bit put off. During those times he resembled the evil Japanese villains in Fist of Fury, lol. One reason I discontinued training there. At least he never denied his art's CMA origins, but according to him, it was the Okinawans and especially the Japanese who made it into an effective art.

Possible that might have to do with anti-Chinese sentiment during the 20th century in general?

Which also reminds me, didn't Mas Oyama have a high opinion on Taikiken (Yi Quan I believe)?

[Jimbo]

Possible that might have to do with anti-Chinese sentiment during the 20th century in general?

Which also reminds me, didn't Mas Oyama have a high opinion on Taikiken (Yi Quan I believe)?

Yes, and it went both ways, I know. I personally find any type of militant nationalism off-putting.

I do believe Mas Oyama had a high opinion of some CMAs, like Xingyi, etc. Oyama was actually a Japanese citizen of Korean descent.

[Jimbo]

this is basically how they rustled the fujian kung fu poples jimmies

Yes. IMO, when a person disrespects or denies their MA's own origins, they fail to realize that without what came before, they wouldn't have what they have now. They wouldn't have jack****. It's insulting one's art and self without even realizing it.

[bawang]

one fascinating thing about okinawa karate is it is very helpful in cross examining kung fu. from karate history we can verify that white crane and other fujian kung fu styles are actually only about 100 years old. so lineage can be pretty helpful in history research

[Krottyman]

Yep, Karate (and me being ABC) got me interested in checking out Kung Fu later down the road, haha

[David Jamieson]

one fascinating thing about okinawa karate is it is very helpful in cross examining kung fu. from karate history we can verify that white crane and other fujian kung fu styles are actually only about 100 years old. so lineage can be pretty helpful in history research

That is an astute observation Bawang.
Because it is true. It is in the Okinawan styles that you see the connection to the chinese martial arts more so than anything else there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The oldest books I have on Okinawan karate, including the bubishi, openly state that Okinawan karate is from China, typically Fujian White Crane or 5 Ancestors or a combination.
There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.

Okinawan karats has always been open about the roots of their MA, not so much the Japanese karate-ka's of course.

[MightyB]

You guys might find these Links interesting:

Go Kenki: The Undercover Kung-fu Pioneer of Okinawan Karate By Jesse Enkamp

and here's a link to:
Free KARATEbyJesse eBook! – The Matsuyama Theory (feat. Sensei Patrick McCarthy)

Direct link to the free ebook pdf:
http://cdn.karatebyjesse.com/wp-cont..._KbJ_eBook.pdf

[Jimbo]

The oldest books I have on Okinawan karate, including the bubishi, openly state that Okinawan karate is from China, typically Fujian White Crane or 5 Ancestors or a combination.
There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.

Okinawan karats has always been open about the roots of their MA, not so much the Japanese karate-ka's of course.

This is why karate has come to mean 'empty hand'. In Japanese, 'Kara' is a h0mophone that can mean 'Tang' in Chinese, referring to the Tang Dynasty or things Chinese, which was the original character for karate (Tang Hand); or it could be a different character meaning 'empty'. Then, I believe it was Funakoshi, himself an Okinawan, who suggested it be changed to the 'kara' meaning 'empty' to appeal more to the Japanese public by erasing any association to China.

In Korean, 'Tang Soo' is the pronunciation of the original meaning of karate (Tang Hand), thus Tang Soo Do. If I'm not mistaken, the Korean pronunciation for 'empty hand' is 'Kong Soo'. Kong Soo Do was another pronunciation used by some Korean karate schools many years ago.

In Mandarin it's Kong Shou Dao (karatedo, empty hand way).

Prior to its renaming and for several years, karate was not highly regarded in mainland Japan, where it was regarded as a crude fighting method from 'backwater' Okinawa, or as something 'foreign'.

[bawang]

There is some evidence to show that Uechi ryu has either SPM or southern dragon influence also.

when zhou zihe taught uechi he added a ton of grabbing drills but didnt change the form yet. after uechi went back to okinawa zhou put the new stuff inside the form and called it tiger stance boxing hu zhuang. his son called it tiger shape boxing or hu xing quan. the mother form "36" is very similar.



so it looks like the fujian boxing the karate people learned was a conservative and standardized military style without name that was openly taught to outsiders, and gave birth to many new styles between boxer rebellion and early republican era.

[Jimbo]

Shorin-ryu karate claims that the Tomari-te and Shuri-te systems that it was develop from are a combination of Northern Shaolin and Okinawa Te. It's the only Okinawan karate style I'm aware of that claims a northern kung fu influence. 'Shorin' is the Japanese pronunciation of 'Shaolin'.

[Krottyman]

Shorin-ryu karate claims that the Tomari-te and Shuri-te systems that it was develop from are a combination of Northern Shaolin and Okinawa Te. It's the only Okinawan karate style I'm aware of that claims a northern kung fu influence. 'Shorin' is the Japanese pronunciation of 'Shaolin'.

Funny thing is that was what motivayed me to pick Karate. I did eventually find a Shaolin group but it was of the Wushu variety. Not what I was looking for

[Kellen Bassette]

no they literally learned one gong fu system

Look at classical Okinawan kata. There are common threads between the major schools, especially Sanchin, but there are many kata that aren't shared and certainly seem to have different roots. No way all Karate comes from just one Gong Fu system, they were all developing at the same time, but there are obvious differences between the systems.

[RenDaHai]

I once sat through watching more than 20 Shotokan forms,

There is definitely a huge connection to Song Shan Shaolin. Every move has a direct equivalent and many repeated combinations are almost identical. In fact you could easily translate any of the forms into a Shaolin kung fu version. I am certain there is a close connection and some one actually studied at song shan at some point in its history.