Why is Lineage so important to some people?

[MightyB]

The proof is in the ability to apply. Not in who your teacher was/is.

I think that the classic disconnect is there. People who train to fight don't put a lot of stock in lineage either. it's not like you're going to learn anything by osmosis. And there are loads of genuine and authentic kung fu schools that haven't fronted a fighter to date.

Which is why I say, it's not important except if you want it to be important.

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

[Jimbo]

Lineage can be important to a degree. That is, if you claim to be "X" system, then you should have trained under a competent teacher of "X" system. But from there, what you do with it becomes the really important thing. There are plenty of people who come from authentic lineages yet suck at MA. An authentic lineage does not miraculously turn you into a great MAist. It's more like a treasure map; the directions are there, but you must do the digging yourself, often through hard rock.

Problems arise when some people point to the person who drew the map as being more important than following its instructions and doing the hard work. They want to feel special through some tenuous connection, often indirectly, to some historical figure. Then the focus becomes acting superior and sniping others behind their backs. The really sad thing is that nobody in the real world knows or gives a crap. Unfortunately, this passive-aggressive behavior is more common in CMA than other types of MA.

[MightyB]

Lineage can be important to a degree. That is, if you claim to be "X" system, then you should have trained under a competent teacher of "X" system. But from there, what you do with it becomes the really important thing. There are plenty of people who come from authentic lineages yet suck at MA. An authentic lineage does not miraculously turn you into a great MAist. It's more like a treasure map; the directions are there, but you must do the digging yourself, often through hard rock.

Problems arise when some people point to the person who drew the map as being more important than following its instructions and doing the hard work. They want to feel special through some tenuous connection, often indirectly, to some historical figure. Then the focus becomes acting superior and sniping others behind their backs. The really sad thing is that nobody in the real world knows or gives a crap. Unfortunately, this passive-aggressive behavior is more common in CMA than other types of MA.

True

I'd wager though that the majority of so called lineage holders didn't go through the legitimate process of discipleship. So one fake begets another fake begets another - and so on. You can't put the sh*t back in the horse unfortunately. But, it's been my experience that a person of true lineage will stand out in terms of ability and knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

Not sure if we can use that as a gauge since a "true" BJJ guy will prove his skill REGARDLESS of lineage.
BJJ is a system in which skill legitimizes a lineage and I am not talking about skill of some dead founder or great master but CURRENT skill of CURRENT practitioners and what I mean is this:
A good lineage is one that CURRENT practitioners are good fighters.

Or, if I may:
Would you rather learn BJJ from a guy that can choke you out and dominate you on the ground and thinks lineage is irrelevant or learn from a guy with a great lineage that YOU can choke out?

Sure this is an extreme example BUT the point is that lineage only carries you so far ( and we all know guys from verified good lineages that suck).

The proof is in the pudding that you are currently eating, not the one that some great master made 50 years ago.

[MightyB]

Not sure if we can use that as a gauge since a "true" BJJ guy will prove his skill REGARDLESS of lineage.
BJJ is a system in which skill legitimizes a lineage and I am not talking about skill of some dead founder or great master but CURRENT skill of CURRENT practitioners and what I mean is this:
A good lineage is one that CURRENT practitioners are good fighters.

Sigh*
Really Now: https://www.facebook.com/graciebarra...0525802563821/

If you don't have real lineage you're a bullsh*tter regardless of style.

[MightyB]

My point is - a BJJ that has earned a belt through a legitimate school has real lineage. Same for a kung fu guy who's EARNED legitimate discipleship from a LEGITIMATE LINEAGE HOLDER WHO REALLY EARNED THEIR DISCIPLESHIP.

A faker is a faker and you can't do anything about that except RESEARCH! Because someone who's earned a true discipleship in a legitimate Lineaged system is going to be skilled.

[MightyB]

When I read threads with this sort of heading it usually means this:
The person in question probably just finished watching 4 or 5 youtube videos and feels they should open a school. They then come onto sites and forums like this posting the "does lineage really matter?" question because they're looking for validation.

Guess what? it does. If you can't prove a legitimate lineage and have no one to back up your claim outside of your kwoon - you're bullsh*t. End of story.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sigh*
Really Now: https://www.facebook.com/graciebarra...0525802563821/

If you don't have real lineage you're a bullsh*tter regardless of style.

No one is disputing that of course, a person should be of the lineage they claim to be, that is a no brainer.

Wither or not lineage matters as much as some people make it out to matter is the issue.

You said this here:
Because someone who's earned a true discipleship in a legitimate Lineaged system is going to be skilled.


And I ask this:
Skilled in WHAT?

[MightyB]

And I ask this:
Skilled in WHAT?

When they demonstrate a form - it will be sharp, display the proper jing - and will not have much variance from other legitimate practitioners of the same style regardless of their geography. They will also know the core tenants of their system.

They will know the self defense applications of their system. They will be able to apply their preferred techniques in a realistic / live scenario.

People aren't singled out for discipleship if they can't do the above, that's why there are so few legitimate lineage holders.

[David Jamieson]

bullsh*t - would you go to learn BJJ from someone with an unproven or unverifiable lineage? Same standards hold true for kung fu. Most likely if the person isn't displaying proper skill, it's because they've faked or fudged a claim on lineage. They never were disciples or they never had any real time with the instructor yet, because they saw so and so in a seminar, they claim to be of that lineage. It's usually not difficult to find out who has real lineage vs fake with a little research.

I wouldn't learn BJJ from someone I rolled with who couldn't lock or tie me up. I honestly could not care less who their teacher was.
You can't fake bad BJJ.
You can fake bad Karate, or Kung Fu simply because of kata/forms, lack of sparring and spending a lot of time focused on movement without application.

Not so with bjj, jj, mma, boxing, etc or any of the others. the training cycle has none of that. It's roadwork, spar/roll repeat. Pretty different.

I do agree with Gene that the lineage is important in TCMA and JMA in particular because of Confucianism more than requirement. That is all good and it really does serve the art as a whole, because without it, the art is not whole in context to that.

In mma type stuff, it's easy to find out who is a good teacher based on how they can handle themselves. It's a very different experience altogether than what you'll find in a traditional kwoon. having been exposed to both, there is a lot more lineage talk in kwoons than in gyms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When they demonstrate a form - it will be sharp, display the proper jing - and will not have much variance from other legitimate practitioners of the same style regardless of their geography. They will also know the core tenants of their system.

They will know the self defense applications of their system. They will be able to apply their preferred techniques in a realistic / live scenario.

People aren't singled out for discipleship if they can't do the above, that's why there are so few legitimate lineage holders.

Fair enough.

[David Jamieson]

also, "tenet" not "tenant"

tenet = core principle
tenant = your renter

Pedantry!

[MightyB]

there is a lot more lineage talk in kwoons than in gyms.

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

[David Jamieson]

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

lol, no, that's more your own pedantry really.

Typically, I don't hear that question much. Not even in Kung Fu quite frankly.
Also, that kind of question is something you would ask after they handed you your ass or you theirs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really because when two BJJ / Judo guys meet, one of the first things asked is "where'd you get your belt?".

That's a lineage question bro.

Really?
I knew that was the case years ago when BJJ was just getting out there ( there was even some "lineage wars" between a few groups) but now?
And Judo guys ALL have the some lineage basically.

To be honest, the only time I have ever seen a linage question asked of some BJJ guy ( never seen one of a judoka by the way) is when someone gets their ass handed to them really bad and then it the "where the **** did you get your belt?"