Why is Lineage so important to some people?

[MightyB]

Really?
I knew that was the case years ago when BJJ was just getting out there ( there was even some "lineage wars" between a few groups) but now?
And Judo guys ALL have the some lineage basically.

To be honest, the only time I have ever seen a linage question asked of some BJJ guy ( never seen one of a judoka by the way) is when someone gets their ass handed to them really bad and then it the "where the **** did you get your belt?"

whatevs.

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate in TCMA. And right now, the defining line is lineage which is fine by me. If you want to stand by and allow more fakers into an already overcrowded with bs market by tacitly complying with their "does lineage matter?" search for validation because they have none - that's on you.

And you're being a little full of sh*t right now anyway because you're telling me that you'd go to a bjj or judo school or seminar to train and not want to know the lineage / background of the instructor? Yeah right...

[bawang]

if u trained under randy coulture or rickson gracie that pretty important lineage

leung ting not so much

[YouKnowWho]

I prefer go to "MIT" than go to "Liberty Hill Community College" because I believe MIT can give me better education than LHCC can.

The worse student from MIT may not be better than the best student from LHCC. But the average student from MIT will definitely be better than the average student from LHCC. There is a good reason that the starting salary for someone from MIT is much higher than the starting salary for someone from some state university.

[Mor Sao]

people are smoking some serious weed.

MIT has nothing to do with MA.

Why bring up such drek?

The analogy does not work.

[-N-]

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate [...]

"He says you're not his blackbelt [...]"

[sanjuro_ronin]

whatevs.

There has to be a defining line between bullsh*t and legitimate in TCMA. And right now, the defining line is lineage which is fine by me. If you want to stand by and allow more fakers into an already overcrowded with bs market by tacitly complying with their "does lineage matter?" search for validation because they have none - that's on you.

And you're being a little full of sh*t right now anyway because you're telling me that you'd go to a bjj or judo school or seminar to train and not want to know the lineage / background of the instructor? Yeah right...

Wow, someone ****ed in your corn flakes?
The point David and I are making is NOT that lineage doesn't matter, it is that it matters LESS than skill and ability to actually DO a martial art, ie: Fight.

You are quite correct that I would won't to know the lineage of a person that I train under, but what you don't seem to realize is that I would want to know about their fighting skills FAR MORE than their lineage.

And since you brought up fakers ( even though no one was talking about them), let me put it this way:
No one that can actually FIGHT with their style is a faker and it can be argued that some that DOES have an approved lineage and CAN'T fight ( and we have seen our share) may, it can be argued, viewed as a "fake" MA since, as well all know, MA IS about FIGHTING far more than it is about anything else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"He says you're not his blackbelt [...]"

Well done.
People should actually LISTEN to what the BJJ BB tells this guy, especially the part where he says how he ( the legit BB) has actually FOUGHT ( even gotten his leg broken).
You know why this happened right? how this guy got caught in his bs right?
It wasn't because he didn't have his lineage "papers" it because he COULDN'T fight/roll.
THAT is how you expose a fraud.

[MightyB]

Wow, someone ****ed in your corn flakes?

You could say someone pee'd in my cornflakes, they've been doing it to all of us for far too long and I say we start to draw a line and be vigilante against this bullsh*t. We are tacitly allowing nobodys to upjump their status in TCMA thereby diluting the TCMA pool by not being vigilant in saying lineage matters. If someone's a phenom fighter that made up their own "style", then they should just say that it's their own style and their record will speak for itself. But if someones claiming shaolin, or choy le fut or whatever and they have no lineage/discipleship, then we call them out because it's bullsh*t. And it's not that hard for someone like that to align themselves with a legitimate school and gain lineage if they're willing to put in the work, but that's the problem, they want the status without the work. So guess what - <all caps for emphasis> LINEAGE MATTERS.

"calling out" doesn't mean we have to go about picking fights with every school or instructor we don't agree with, "calling out" is simply responding to these questions about why lineage matters with a simple response that goes something like this: Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to a traditional Chinese martial art style.

[-N-]

Well done.
People should actually LISTEN to what the BJJ BB tells this guy, especially the part where he says how he ( the legit BB) has actually FOUGHT ( even gotten his leg broken).
You know why this happened right? how this guy got caught in his bs right?
It wasn't because he didn't have his lineage "papers" it because he COULDN'T fight/roll.
THAT is how you expose a fraud.

I think that video supports both your and MightyB's perspectives on the topic.

The instructor apparently rolled with the faker and found he had no clue.

He also asked the guy's supposed teacher and found/confirmed the faker wasn't what he claimed.

There are lots of guys like that faker who try to ride on the reputation of others.

They might be exposed by test of skill. They might be exposed by checking with the claimed lineage.

Lineage is no guarantee, but it can be one way of trying to maintain quality control.

And there are ways to have quality without "lineage".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to a traditional Chinese martial art style.

YES, on THAT regard we agree 100%.
I would just word it this way:
Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to REPRESENT a traditional Chinese martial art style.

I am sure you see the big difference between a guy that has done WC for example, maybe even a few styles and does it for the skill as opposed to someone Claiming to REPRESENT a style.

And that is the divide, You are, rightly, making this a fraud issue BUT we aren't since we ALL agree that is unacceptable and that lineage is crucial in that matter.
That is a given.

What the the posted that resurrected this thread was this:

Why is lineage so important to some people when justifying or validating a CMA school?

I never understood why some people are so caught up on lineage. It seems that Wing Chun students are the worst about it.
Real Shaolin monks vs fake Shaolin monks. Learned from Ip Man vs didn't learn from Ip Man. Original mantis style vs later mantis styles. WHO CARES?!
I don't give a flying flip who the instructor is or where he/she came from. Can he/she teach me what I want to learn?
I'm tired of hearing instructors and students claim, "My grandmaster/founder of our system once killed a gang of 30 people with his pinky." as some kind of selling point.
I'm always like, "That's great! Where can I find him? No? He's dead? Well, what flippin' good does that claim do me? I don't care what your grandmaster or founder achieved. That has no affect on your ability to teach me."

And in that regard ( and the fraud issue aside), in terms of technical skill and fighting ability and so forth, lineage means LESS than skill.

The issue we have in TCMA is not JUST one of frauds, it also one of legit MA that don't have the actual skills they SAY they do and i think that is a far worse issue.

But we Can agree to disagree, it's all good.

[-N-]

There are lots of guys like that faker who try to ride on the reputation of others.

They might be exposed by test of skill. They might be exposed by checking with the claimed lineage.

Lineage is no guarantee, but it can be one way of trying to maintain quality control.

And there are ways to have quality without "lineage".

Even within a lineage, there is skill and there is skill.

And within that group, people know who is the real deal.

[MightyB]

I would just word it this way:
Lineage does matter because it's the only way we can verify a person's claim to REPRESENT a traditional Chinese martial art style.

This is a great response to the age old question of "does lineage matter?"

[MightyB]

people are smoking some serious weed.

MIT has nothing to do with MA.

Why bring up such drek?

The analogy does not work.

It does work as an analogy. He's saying that lineage helps you to know the reputation for the value of the instruction that you'll get. He's saying that even though you can learn engineering skills at both a community college or MIT, MIT has the better reputation - this reputation is based on the level of instruction and the skills that you'll be required to learn... i.e. the curriculum. And people outside of those institutions would be willing to pay more to employees who went through MIT's verified curriculum.

Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction.

[mickey]

Greetings,

"Your lineage tells an outsider within the TCMA world if you went to a community college or MIT for your instruction."

In TCMA it is the impact of your fist; therefore, it does not matter where you go. It is the kung fu you subject yourself to to acquire real skills.

mickey

[MightyB]

Hey guys... ummm you know - I've been watching you know - youtube videos for a long time, and you know I've watched the, uhhh, bum bo video like 37 times, and you know ummm, I uhhh - I uhhh think I do it as good as the guy, ummm, you know the guy in the youtube video, and I ummm, I uhhh, I lift weights, and jog, and stuff, and I hit bags and ummm, it's not about lineage right? cuz, ummm, I don't know anything about the guy in the youtube, but uhhh, I'm as good at the bum bo as him, so uhhh, you know, and I think I can fights and stuff cuz this one time, there was this guy, and you know, we like got in a fight, and ummm, nobody fights like those forms youtube videos anyway, so umm I uh, got in a fight with this guy and I you know, I think I won cuz he had a black eye and we wuz drunk - he's my cousin, but he's tough, so it's like, I'm tough too cuz ummm, I won

anyway, I watched all those grasey videos - the portuguese guys that wrastle, I watched them too so you know, I didn't find anybody to practice with, but I watched them, and you know when I watch the ufc now, I know what they'll do and I can like yell out all the counters for the moves their in, so you know ummm, I uhh I know grasey ufc style too, but
you know lineage, does it really matter, cuz you know
I think I can teach that bum bo now and I tought my cousin how to do it after we got in that fight
but how I taught him didn't really look like the stuff that guy was doing in the youtube cuz nobody fights like that anyway, so we just ummm, hit bags and stuff, and watched another youtube video on moo tie and did some round house kicks cuz they are better and more realistic than the kung fu bum bo, but
I guess what I'm askin' is - does lineage really matter cuz I can do the bum bo, so doesn't that make me a mantis kun fu man?