Excellent ving tsun under pressure

[Frost]

I'm not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.

I'm saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.

If you disagree then show me a better one.

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

[YouKnowWho]

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The "intention" was missing.

In the following clip, the "knock down intention" can be seen. If you have experienced the true "full contact", it's very difficult to feel pressure in "non-full contact".

[LFJ]

I think lineage not that relevant.

He wouldn't have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn't try to position themselves as gatekeepers of "WSLVT"... Pretty relevant, I'd say.

Jerry is good.

At what? And how do you know?

Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You'll think he's good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn't suck as much as you.

I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.

Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn't cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn't even learned the forms, didn't even know they existed...

This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on "sparring night" because they "might freak out if they did something they weren't familiar with" (a red flag that they don't actually do any serious training).

And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn't even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing...

So I'd say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn't know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering "sparring night" to them means "open chi-sau".

I've been to his school as well.

Then you'd know even on their "sparring night", all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.

So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan's or Sean's students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he's not even doing or teaching fight training.

Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.

In your opinion. Not my problem.

[guy b.]

They aren't falling to pieces because they aren't under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn't fall apart because its not actually pressured.

Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn't being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt

Gloves don't create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.

Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.

[guy b.]

Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The "intention" was missing.

In the following clip, the "knock down intention" can be seen. If you have experienced the true "full contact", it's very difficult to feel pressure in "non-full contact".

Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.

[guy b.]

He wouldn't have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn't try to position themselves as gatekeepers of "WSLVT"... Pretty relevant, I'd say.

What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.

At what? And how do you know?

Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You'll think he's good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn't suck as much as you.

I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.

Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn't cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn't even learned the forms, didn't even know they existed...

This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on "sparring night" because they "might freak out if they did something they weren't familiar with" (a red flag that they don't actually do any serious training).

And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn't even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing...

So I'd say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn't know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering "sparring night" to them means "open chi-sau".

Mark is not good, Jerry is good. Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn't learn whatever it was. He has definitely sparred hard, but skill development in that direction is limited once you know what it is.

Then you'd know even on their "sparring night", all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.

How did WSL train again?

So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan's or Sean's students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he's not even doing or teaching fight training.

His skill level is far above Sean's students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun. In Alan's case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn't very good though, I have been to his school.

In your opinion

It is all we have at the end of the day

[Frost]

Gloves don't create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.

Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.

I dont expect you to be awed, I'm quite aware how misguided your views are but I'm simply pointing out you camt compare a bare hand slap fest to actual contact work
As for;
A there being hard body shots in that clip
B any head shots or
C gloves relieving pressure you are seriously deluded and there's no point speaking to you lol

[Sean66]

His skill level is far above Sean's students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

Sparring in my school is trained progressively and never "too soon".

Sparring (in all its forms, not just "hard" sparring) against people of other styles only helps us to discover weaknesses and to correct/finely tune - not abandon wing chun.

If you don't see the wing chun movement, techniques and strategies being used (sometimes with success, sometimes not) in my clips, then, sadly, I don't think I can help you.

It's ok, though. To each his own.

I, for one, don't want my students to be slap happy kung fu fantasy warriors who talk sans cesse about structure, simplicity, efficacity, directness, etc, etc, without ever putting anything to the test.

[YouKnowWho]

Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.

Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.

[Frost]

Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand

[YouKnowWho]

I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand

I thought so too after UFC 3 back in September 9, 1994, that was almost 21 years ago.

[LFJ]

What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.

Well, I am not alone, in fact I'm in the majority in thinking he and his friends are not good enough to position themselves as gatekeepers of WSLVT and try to standardize and regulate its instruction. That is embarrassing.

Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn't learn whatever it was.

He got hit 4 times in a row with the same thing by a guy with 4 years experience in an "inferior" lineage who hadn't even learned the system properly.

All he taught that guy was that he's unable to learn and adapt. How could he have anything to teach him? The guy left the school thinking they were jokes, and never returned, and I was embarrassed for having taken him.

How did WSL train again?

By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.

If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can't say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.

Sean's guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That's what they take back into their drilling to correct.

If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you're learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry's clip.

In Alan's case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn't very good though, I have been to his school.

Alan's fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you're apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent's aren't making the complaints "that's not Wing Chun" or "your teacher isn't very good". Instead, they're probably complaining that they hit to hard!

Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.

You were impressed by him "maintaining structure". I guess by that you mean the way he was standing and holding his hands up? He was never in range or in danger to have it tested. He just stood outside and swatted at the Xing Yi guy's hands, then ran away when he got too close. And you call this "excellent ving tsun under pressure". lol

[WcForMe]

Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven't.

If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I've stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.

I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.

Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn't appeal to what I would call fighters. Don't get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.

However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?

atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.

I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.

[GlennR]

Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven't.

If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I've stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.

I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.

Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn't appeal to what I would call fighters. Don't get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.

However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?

atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.

I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.

Nice post and spot on in all your points

[guy b.]

By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.

I think you will find that many of the fights WSL participated in were something like what you see in the Jerry vs xing yi clip. This is the Chinese style skill test with body shots and open hands designed to save face. Others were very low skilled confrontations. Still others were actual fights. None looked like a relaxed gloved sparring session in a comfortable gym. WSL was not gloving up and doing MMA for good reason- as the clips which have been posted show, gloved wing chun doesn't work and actually degrades wing chun skill. Empty handed testing is essential.

If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can't say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.

Sparring as shown is absolutely the worst thing you can do for your wing chun. Sparring empty hand is beneficial. Fighting is a test.

Sean's guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That's what they take back into their drilling to correct.

They are learning not to do wing chun. It is akin to sprint training wearing ankle weights- very counter productive and degrading of actual skill.

If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you're learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry's clip.

I train empty handed, never gloves.

Alan's fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you're apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent's aren't making the complaints "that's not Wing Chun" or "your teacher isn't very good". Instead, they're probably complaining that they hit to hard!

That's fine, but what they do doesn't contain wing chun strategy, structure or movement, and so is not wing chun.

Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.

No better clip has been posted. Seans clip is a gloved sparring clip. It contains no realistic fighting movements because there is no danger and no pressure involved. Movement is incredibly slow. Stepping is non existent. Structure is missing. The only vestige of wing chun is the wing chun shape punch which fires off occasionally like a dead, drilled maneuver. It is quite a bad clip.

People who never train bare handed always think this sort of stuff is the real thing. They couldn't be further from the truth. Fights are fast. Nobody moves as they do in a gloved gym sparring session.