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Thread: Excellent ving tsun under pressure

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by WcForMe View Post
    I'm curious guy what do you think of this as nobody seems to be posting videos including you.

    http://youtu.be/eGq16earzl8
    Thank you for posting a clip. I don't really like this style of wing chun because I feel it lacks forward intent and chases arms. But each to their own.

  2. #92
    Well number 1 thanks for being respectful. That clip is of Sifu Brian Desir, to give you some very quick background he has trained with Austin Goh, Sam Kwok and Ip Chun to my knowledge as well as training in Thailand doing full contact Thai boxing. He is a British full contact champion twice. I can't speak for Brian but as far as I know and he has told me this is true.

    I'm curious to which part or parts you think he is chasing hands? From what I can see and have been taught I don't see that. I believe his structure to be better than your clip. But you will and do disagree.

    Regarding forward intent, this man is constantly using forward intent I can promise you that. Seen it, felt it, believe me or not no biggy for me. Now on a personal note I know this is not his best fighting. Which you can clearly see if you know what your looking at. Oh and sorry there wearing gloves and not going full power. So I assume there not up to your grade? Oh but wait unlike Jerry they actually hit each other! Anybody else feel free to comment on the video.
    Last edited by WcForMe; 08-12-2015 at 07:30 AM.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by WcForMe View Post
    I'm curious to which part or parts you think he is chasing hands? From what I can see and have been taught I don't see that.
    Hi WcForMe. I think the chasing hands/legs starts right away, specific example would be at the :53 second mark. That might be one example of what Guy is referencing? Thanks.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by WcForMe View Post
    Anybody else feel free to comment on the video.
    I agree with guy b.'s assessment here.

    He was not pressuring forward but standing outside of ideal striking range, and not angling at all but standing directly in front of the sparring partner. This forced him to use "Wing Chun style" blocks to try and stop everything being thrown at him from all four limbs. He was fighting the limbs and not the man. This is hand/limb-chasing. Since he was out of range he was also overextending his shots, either making his stance too wide or raising his rear foot off the ground; things which cause further loss of mobility and power.

    Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away...

    Both clips lack fighting strategy.

  5. #95
    Ok guys many thanks for the feedback! Good to here different peoples views on a clip! I personally don't agree with all that was been said but I respect everybody's views. Both these guys are over 6ft 3! So they are tall guys with massive reach! I personally can't fight like that as I'm only 5ft 8 hence was my original reason for choosing wing chun hence wcforme haha!

    I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do! But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely. I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands. He creates distance for kicks and a few angles to make it work. As I said this is far from his best fighting ability.But if you guys don't agree that's fine. Hopefully can make some reasonable thread out of a bunch of bickering. Critasicm is more than welcome. Just to clarify neather of these gentleman are me. Sifu Brian would destroy me in about 2 seconds. So anybody that can actually fight better than me I'm willing to listen and to learn. Everybody has something to offer imo.
    Last edited by WcForMe; 08-12-2015 at 09:02 AM.

  6. #96
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    The rugged good looks you get from contact sport without protective gear

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    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
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  7. #97
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    Nobody I train with has HIV or Hep B.
    You can't be sure of that, and neither can they. Every responsible sport removes bleeding players from the field of play immediately because of such risks.

    The same concerns apply to any contact sport, especially grappling.
    You know, I said something very similar above. I'm making a general recommendation for Hep B vaccinations, not accusing anyone of anything. Getting vaccinated should not reflect on your training partners or yourself. Sheesh.


    Blunt force knocks out teeth, not bareness of knuckles. Gum shields are also compatible with bare handed training.
    But you said above you regard broken teeth as inconsequential and cheap to fix. Or something very similar. So why bother?

    The main difference between gloved and non-gloved training is hand cuts and injuries.
    And there is a fairly easy way to avoid or mitigate that ....
    Last edited by anerlich; 08-12-2015 at 03:26 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  8. #98
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    Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away...
    This ^^

    I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.

    I'd be looking to hit both their front legs with a low ankle shoot, but this isn't a grappling match.

    It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.
    Last edited by anerlich; 08-12-2015 at 03:44 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I agree with guy b.'s assessment here.

    He was not pressuring forward but standing outside of ideal striking range, and not angling at all but standing directly in front of the sparring partner. This forced him to use "Wing Chun style" blocks to try and stop everything being thrown at him from all four limbs. He was fighting the limbs and not the man. This is hand/limb-chasing. Since he was out of range he was also overextending his shots, either making his stance too wide or raising his rear foot off the ground; things which cause further loss of mobility and power.

    Basically, it was very similar to what Jerry was doing in his clip (out of range, standing directly in front and messing with hands up the middle, and overextending shots) only Jerry did a lot less movement on account of he kept running away...

    Both clips lack fighting strategy.
    I agree with everything said above.

    Quote Originally Posted by WcForMe View Post
    Ok guys many thanks for the feedback! Good to here different peoples views on a clip! I personally don't agree with all that was been said but I respect everybody's views. Both these guys are over 6ft 3! So they are tall guys with massive reach! I personally can't fight like that as I'm only 5ft 8 hence was my original reason for choosing wing chun hence wcforme haha!
    If they have equal height/reach, it shouldn't matter - height/reach is really only a factor when there's a great difference between the 2 people.

    Quote Originally Posted by WcForMe View Post
    I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do! But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely. I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands. He creates distance for kicks and a few angles to make it work.
    IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands. Example - right in the beginning of the sparring (@0:53) he 'blocks' 2 repeated kicks while leaning fwd. He doesn't change the range, doesn't move it - just holds his position and swats at them while looking right at the kicks. No WC bridging in any of that, just chasing hands/kicks while 'blocking'.

    Now, to be fair, maybe the guy does have skill and has competed - Hats off to him for that. But from a WC principle perspective, this is a very limited demonstration IMO.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.
    Also agreed. But they are also doing a lot of things you wouldn't be doing if your WC was regularly trained under pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.
    Haha. true - unless you feel both MCforMe's clip and Jerry's clip all demonstrate lack of fwd intent
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Also agreed. But they are also doing a lot of things you wouldn't be doing if your WC was regularly trained under pressure.
    yeahhhh ... but I think you can and should try things in a low pressure environment that you wouldn't consider when the pressure is on.

    I try all sorts of weird sh*t during flow rolls in Jiu Jitsu that I wouldn't dream of trying in a competitive situation. And yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know a competition isn't a real fight. Presumably you've done a fair amount of both if you are appointing yourself as fit to judge.

    That's how you learn. OTOH, if you don't go hard regularly (and that might need be only 10% of the time, the right balance is probably an individual thing), you end up with holes in your game and poor defence.

    Trying to find an optimum balance is hard .... finding a balance that might not be totally optimal but will still help you improve is not.

    I'm mainly participating in this discussion for fun (OK, trolling). Really I can't see the point of arguing about training methodologies as an all-or-nothing thing. As long as the student is continually improving, that is the important thing. And not everyone has the same goals for that improvement. If you're not sure, try as many approaches as possible, and choose those that best produce the desired results.
    Last edited by anerlich; 08-12-2015 at 08:27 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCforMe
    I wouldn't call pak sao, bong sao, tan Sao, bil sao chasing hands.
    Just because they are Wing Chun shapes, doesn't mean they necessarily aren't chasing hands.

    He was using them individually as mere blocks while staying outside, not as helping hands to open up lines of attack while closing off space and limiting the other guy's ability to continue, as JP says. There was a ton of space between them, which is why he had to keep using those as blocks without attacking.

    I would agree there isn't loads of angling going on, but I hope you all listened to Brian speak at the beginning of the video explaining what he wanted to do!
    A light and friendly "technical" spar doesn't mean strategy can't be used. Without the fighting strategy, even using "Wing Chun" shapes, there's no Wing Chun.

    But he steps in quite a bit see his front foot meet his opponents nicely.
    But what does his back foot do? It often stays back while he overextends his stance (1:12) putting too much weight on his front leg, limiting his mobility, forcing him to jerk his head back to avoid the counter strike, completely breaking his structure and putting his stance and spine in a very awkward position which would spell bad news if the opponent pressured forward then.

    His student is also guilty of this bending the spine to avoid head shots, as in just before that with bong-sau at 1:11. Pause and take a took. It's ridiculously bad position. Brian's was not as exaggerated, but still bad.

    The other footwork thing he does very often is he raises the rear foot from the ground as he over extends his punch, breaking the power line to the ground and limiting the power of his strikes (1:04/1:33/2:22/2:24/2:42).

    Notice in these instances his punch is often reaching over the top of his opponent's arms with an elbow-up punch. He even throws a horizontal power punch from a horse stance (2:49) like CLF or something, not Wing Chun.

  13. #103
    Finally I feel like there's some real good observations and statements being made that actually had some body to it and some intelligent advice, criticising going on. You have to bear with me loads of replies good and bad, I'm I'm England so when I'm sleeping you guys are writing so il try to keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    This ^^

    I don't really see a problem with either clip for what it is. But WCforMe's clip looks like two clubmates having a friendly spar. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not wing chun under pressure. I'm not saying these guys might not be competent, just that this clip isn't showing them giving or receiving real pressure.

    It's hypocritical to criticise these guys for lacking forward intent, when in the vaunted clip with Jerry most of what he shows is backward intent at high speed.
    I would whole heartily agree with all of this. I'm not saying the clip I posted is the best wing chun ever. Im not claiming that myself or anybody that I train with or trains me are the gatekeepers of any lineage of wing chun.
    I totally agree there is a lack of pressure but as Sifu Brian stated as most of you have pointed out, it is a friendly exchange to try and work some techniques in a free environment rather than some pre worked out drills.

    Also I would like to bring to light a Sifu, student relationship. I firmly believe every Sifu has a duty of care to his or her students. If Sifu Brian just opened up and demolished his student what is learned? I'm sure Sifu Brian knows his ability and this isn't a showcase of his ability. A good Sifu I believe should build confidence in his or her Students ability. The tricky thing is not to over build confidence so every person thinks there the baddest fighter on the planet.

    I train mainly for fitness, for fun, and to learn something useful. I live in a good area, street fights, muggings and violence does happen but it's unlikely it would happen to you. So I spend 6 hours a week under tutelage, maybe another 4 hours solo practicing or with a friend. I tested myself with mma and any other styles that wanted to because I wanted to see personally what worked and what didn't. I did that off my in back not through my clubs or organisations I train with. I'm not training to fight professional fighters or to knock out Mike Tyson and the such. Just to defend myself, family and friends if it ever came to it. So I would say I put in a great deal of effort just for that. But everybody trains for different reasons.

  14. #104
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    You know, I fought Vale Tudo when it was still bare knukle and no weight limits.
    I fought Kyokushin when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
    In neither cases did I train with NO GLOVES when it came to head shots and neither did anyone else.
    I have never been to ANY gym were training was done full contact with NO protective gear.
    I have seen full contact and no gloves But with protective (dome) headgear ( Daidojuku for example).
    I have trained in N.America, in Europe AND Japan under those conditions and, again I repeat, I have never seen full contact bare knuckle TRAINING with no protective gear.
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    I agree with everything said above.



    If they have equal height/reach, it shouldn't matter - height/reach is really only a factor when there's a great difference between the 2 people.



    IMO, just looking at what he's doing as 'techniques' is a chasing hands POV from the start (no offence intended). The fact that he isn't entering in and closing off the space while using those techniques to mainly 'block' means he is focusing mainly on the attacks coming in and countering vs. shutting down the line and limiting his opponent's ability to continue to fire those shots. Without effecting his opponent's COG or facing and only focusing on using techniques against his opponent's techniques is chasing hands. Example - right in the beginning of the sparring (@0:53) he 'blocks' 2 repeated kicks while leaning fwd. He doesn't change the range, doesn't move it - just holds his position and swats at them while looking right at the kicks. No WC bridging in any of that, just chasing hands/kicks while 'blocking'.

    Now, to be fair, maybe the guy does have skill and has competed - Hats off to him for that. But from a WC principle perspective, this is a very limited demonstration IMO.
    Thanks for your reply. I don't take any offence from what you have pointed out whatsoever. I feel you do have some excellent points to be honest. Especially regarding cog,shutting off the line etc. LFJ I agree with you on the leaning in. I personally hate this part and I don't do it for the reasons you have brought up. I have seen it work for some of these gentlemen but I don't agree with it personally. Any martial artist will have things they will use and things they personally discard from a given Sifu. This is defiantly a part I discard myself. Also about the distance and chasing hands I can understand your points and duely noted. Has anybody ever agreed with every single thing they have been taught with one Sifu? I'm on my second Sifu now because I didn't agree with everything in honesty.

    But I personally feel Sifu Brian is being very shall I say kind to his student and letting him work his movements regardless if you feel it is right or wrong. Regarding height I can completely understand what your saying and in honesty that didn't occur to me so a valid point, and the same goes for your observation about his rear foot.

    I know Sifu Brian has competed, I'm unsure of his involvement with Thai boxing and comps, but it's a fact that he is full contact British Kung Fu champion twice. He has my upmost respect as a martial artist, and Sifu and as a person. I am not willing to throw mud at him as I truely respect him with the upmost sincerity. I am unyielding in this opinion regardless what anybody else thinks or feels. I am not a spokesperson for Sifu Brian, I have no authority for that. I can only relay the info I have been told or seen myself.

    These posts have proved one thing to me. Don't judge anybody based on a video. Only by touching hands and feeling the person in question can you have a very good personal opinion on any martial artist. However I do think you and LFJ have a very keen eye for fighting and amazing observational skills. Kudos to you for that. Also regarding strategy I feel is another excellent point that I personally overlook and with those remarks have made me think about wing chun and fighting in general in another way. Many thanks.
    Last edited by WcForMe; 08-13-2015 at 06:50 AM.

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