Excellent ving tsun under pressure

[LFJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

Excellent maintenance of structure, frame, distance and movement in this clip, under unknown pressure in a potentially embarrassing situation. This is about the only clip I can find on the internet of ving tsun working in a way that doesn't look stiff, predetermined, or easily beaten by a freely moving fighter. Good clip, great ving tsun. Anyone seen better?

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

[LFJ]

Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard, As are Seans students, that you think this is a good clip under pressure when no shots are actually being thrown with intent speaks volumes

I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work

Volumes. Agreed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pressure testing is crucial to any MA that prides itself on being a "fighting system".
There is simply no way around it.
Now, there are different types of pressure testing of course, ranging from light contact to full contact and same-system testing to cross-system testing.
It have been my experience that the more specialized a system is ( take southern mantis or wing chun for example) the more cross- system testing they require.
Why?
A few reasons but basically because the same-system testing is far to limited in those cases.
Allow me an example:
Boxing is all same-system testing of course, BUT because it is so natural and "easy to learn" because it is natural, the carry-over into real life scenarios and VS other systems works well enough.
The issue is with a specialized system, like WC, the carry over is less because it is NOT as "natural" as boxing.
Anyone that has done both knows exactly what I mean.
So, WC to be effective VS a different system needs to be pressure tested outside itself more.
This does NOT mean one stops doing WC, it means that the skill set developed when one trains WC VS WC needs to be developed differently to be used in WC VS BJJ or WC VS MMA or WC VS Muay Thai for example.

So, those clips of WC VS Xingi and other clips of WC VS other systems will have a very different look then any clip of WC VS WC and that is a GOOD thing.

[wckf92]

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

Isn't the WC guy in the video a PBVT practitioner? Or does he train in a different vein of the WSL camp?

[LFJ]

Isn't the WC guy in the video a PBVT practitioner? Or does he train in a different vein of the WSL camp?

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

[wckf92]

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

Cool...thx

[JPinAZ]

1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.

2. What is wing chun bridging? Show me a better clip.

1. seems like a cop out. he didn't act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller 'master'. My assumption still stands.

2. It's not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.

[guy b.]

Nope called him aron brum one of alans students
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...gion-MMA-title Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard

That explains my confusion- his name is Aron Baum, not Aron Brum. Nothing in those clips is wing chun. Someone is trying to hit him, it is true. But they tell us nothing about wing chun, other than the fact that Alan Orr's group don't do it.

As are Seans students

Seans students are trying but appear to have real problems with movement outside of drills. This is why they move robotically and predictably.

[guy b.]

1. seems like a cop out. he didn't act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller 'master'. My assumption still stands.

2. It's not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.

1. The first guy is much more important.

2. You can't say "doesn't understand wing chun bridging" and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.

[guy b.]

No. Vastly different, I would say.

To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I'm not so sure.

I think lineage not that relevant.

Jerry is good. I'm not sure if PB is good. He looks good in clips, but the clips are very limited. His guys often don't look good. That doesn't mean he isn't good of course.

[guy b.]

I didn't see any "ving tsun working" in that video. You've got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.

And I'll tell you, I've been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean's students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry's are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean's clips. I'm surprised at your opinion of this video.

I've been to his school as well. Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.

[guy b.]

Hey guy b,

I honestly don't know what you're referring to, because in my clips I show my students actually sparring (moving freely) against non-wing chun guys.
In this clip, for example, one of my students goes 12 rounds with two (experienced) friends from the local mma gym who are preparing for a competition:
https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9...5459715308979/

And in the other youtube videos there are also long sequences of free sparring against opponents who are unconcerned with any type of face-saving etiquette (actually trying to knock your block off and/or take you down and submit you).

Now of course there are problems, both strategic and technical, that have to be ironed out in order to improve my student's performance. But at least we are working on it in the "lab" of real, full-contact sparring against un-cooperative opponents.

Hi Sean,

I have no desire to offend you. Your students certainly are sparring. I just don't think their wing chun is strong enough to survive the process. They do best when they don't stand like wing chun mannequins and when they punch and move naturally. For them wing chun has not been made natural. It looks to be an impediment rather than a benefit in what they are doing.

Guy

[guy b.]

I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work

I'm not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.

I'm saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.

If you disagree then show me a better one.

[JPinAZ]

1. The first guy is much more important.

2. You can't say "doesn't understand wing chun bridging" and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.

1. Nonsense, he didn't run because he was 'so important'. If that was the case, he simply would not have accepted the offer to touch hands in the first place. Since you obviously are going to defend this no matter what anyone says, I see no point in going further on this.

2. How many times must I repeat myself? You're just arguing to argue now because you can't be that dense. For the last time, he was constantly backing up, running away and not engaging into proper WC striking range. That means he doesn't understand WC bridging and engagement. So the opposite of that must be what I'm talking about. It's really simple.

I'm far from shy discussing WC concept/principle, but it's clearly you're going to defend him no matter what, and you're most likely just going to argue with whatever I present anyway. So I'll give you few WC concepts that might help you with understanding what I feel is necessary for proper WC engagement and bridging, and you can decide for yourself if he was doing these things or not.
- First simple concept is occupying space with fwd energy & good structure on centerline - without giving up space (in my lineage we call this maximizing your credit on the centerline).
- Another is you don't move, I don't move - You move, I get there first.
- And a final big one is - loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.

[anerlich]

1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.

That's what I think is the central issue with this clip. There seems to be a pronounced disparity in the attitude of the participants. Wing Chun guy is tentative and defensive. Xingyi guy appears way overconfident, like he knows he has no chance of the WC guy really trying to hit (rather than tag) him. He overreaches, rushes in wildly, hold his hands low, sticks his chin out, leans forward. Got tagged a fair bit even though WC guy was trying really hard not to hit him with any power. No attempts by either to circle, sidestep or move offline. Back and forth (in WC guy's case, mostly back).

This looks more like an exhibition to make the Xingyi guy look dominant, with both participants playing their allotted roles. The WC guy might well be good but doesn't get a chance to show it here. He has much better structure than the Xingyi guy but only because the Xingyi guy basically shows next to none.

[Admission: I didn't watch the whole clip. I think I watched enough.]

I did Xingyi and Bagua for about 5 years back in the '80s. If that guy is a Xingyi master, my faith in my decisions to move on to WC and Jiu Jitsu are reinforced massively.

If Alan Orr's guys don't do Wing Chun, I think I'd rather do what they're doing rather than the Wing Chun shown in the clip.